all posts post new thread

Kettlebell A Hello and training advice

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

David S

Level 5 Valued Member
Hello all, I've been following the forum for a while but not really posted, so a bit of background:
-Male aged 38 6'1 and around 175 pounds.
-Completed S&S swings a couple of years ago , never met the standard with get ups as the 32kg really beat up my puny wrists!
-Max press at the moment is 24K, 5 pull ups, 32K goblet squat.
-Injury-wise, have previously had some elbow pain from pull ups so keep the volume low to manage that. Have also had some knee osteoarthritis which has been under control with food elimination.

For a bit of a challenge and some fun, I've entered a 10K obstacle race in october, so would appreciate thoughts on training approach. Was thinking of following something like total weekly package:
-day 1 strength - TGU to warm up then press, pull up, pistol regression, SLDL
-day 2 conditioning - sprints
-day 3 repeat day 1
-day 4 conditioning - roadwork
Also with a variety day to practice monkey bars. I also have a 20 minute walk with a backpack to and from work 5 days a week.

Goals are to build up endurance to get through the race in a decent time, and also to maintain/build strength to tackle the obstacles without disgracing myself too much!!

How does this sound? A couple of specific questions advice appreciated on:
-how far to build up to with the roadwork? - I've read reports on here of people preparing for longer runs primarily with sprints
-whether swings / snatches could / should be incorporated somewhere

Thanks for reading...!
 
Last edited:
Hey David,

Below is a basic template that I've used with a number of my clients who run (road races or obstacle courses). Unless you enjoy running as a pastime (for fun, stress relief, etc), I'd suggest emphasizing only kettlebell (barbell, body weight) strength training until about 8 weeks prior to the race... Until then, there are plenty of great plans on the blog, etc. Just make sure to swing or snatch 2-3x/week for 10-30 min. Also, use various grips during your pull-up training (palms facing you, palms facing away, alternate grip, neutral grip if you have the set-up for it, etc). That should help with the elbow tendonitis (a likely cause of discomfort).

Race training:
Week #; Sprint Day (Wed???); Distance Day (Sun???)
1; 4x400 meters; 2 miles
2; 5x400; 3
3; 6x400; 4
4; 6x400; 3
5; 6x300; 4
6; 4x300; 5 (~ 80% of race distance)
7; 2x300; 3 (~ 50% of race distance)
8; 2x200; Race day (6-ish miles)

Notes:
- Strength train 2 days/week during race training; emphasize the basics (squat, hinge, pull, push, rotate, carry). Do 2-3 sets of 3-5 reps for each movement. End one strength training session with 5 sets of 10 (heavy) swings. End the second session with 10 sets of 10 (heavy) swings. Rest as necessary between sets of swings in order to maintain the explosiveness of the first set.

- For sprints: Run each sprint as fast as what you can maintain for the entire sprint distance (i.e. don't go so fast that you hit a wall at the 300m mark). Walk an equal distance between sprints (i.e. sprint x400, walk x400). Time yourself for each sprint. If your time slows by more than 5-6%, take more time between sprints. Feel free to reduce the time between sprints (i.e. walk a shorter distance) so long as you can maintain your speed. When the distance for each sprint starts to drop (week 5), increase your speed.

- For distance runs: Go at a pace that allows you to continue breathing through your nose. It'll be slower than you think... :) For future reference, I'm a big fan of the 2 steps forward + 1 step backward approach. You can make larger jumps between weeks for longer races. My previous comment about pace still applies (i.e. it doesn't matter how long it takes to get in the mileage... the purpose of the long distance stuff is solely to train your body to get used to the distance so that your hips don't cramp during the race and so that you're not extremely sore the following day).
 
Swings. Swings will literally save your butt if there are lots of hills. I just did my first spartan race a few days ago, and due to my tight schedule the majority of my running training was actually swings. I didn't set any records, but I was in the upper middle of the pack and had a great time. You can look at my training log if you want to see exactly what I did, but the gist of it was this:
  • Train 5-6 days/week
  • Start each session with 12-16 bent presses, which I later replaced with TGUs
  • The meat of each session was anywhere from 100-300 swings. Al Ciampa introduced me to doing small sets of swings on the minute, while keeping my HR in or below my MAF training zone, and for the last few months I was specifically doing sets of 10 one-handed swings like that.
  • An average of once or twice a week I would head out for a 10 minute easy run where I focused on training my cadence and running technique.
  • Once a week, on the weekend, I would do some long slow endurance work (running, rucking, etc) and work on keeping my HR in my MAF training zone.
  • I did some sprints towards the end of my training, but I think I under utilized them. In retrospect, I should have started doing sprints once or twice a week with a 1:6 work:rest ratio, starting maybe 8-12 weeks out, then started compressing the rest period a little each week once I was 6 weeks out. Of course, part of the reason I didn't do this was that it takes more training time.
My advice to you is 1) make sure you running form is dialed in, and 2) throw in 10-20 minutes of on the minute swings, maybe after your strength work.

For the road work, I think the 1-2 LSD sessions per week is sufficient, and just go a little longer each week, up to a couple hours if it feels good. Be conservative to begin with, though, I had to take a couple weeks off running after I bit off too much and hurt my foot. If you have a heart rate monitor, a lot of people have been successful with doing their LSD in their MAF zone, which is (180-age)+/-5. So for you it would be 137-147 bpm.

My training certainly wasn't ideal, since it was dictated more by my schedule and other responsibilities than the actual demands of the race, but it did end up being fairly effective. Hope this helps!
 
@Ryan Toshner, thank you for that great template! That's fantastic and just what I was looking for. I was hoping to be able to carry on swinging (I am currently working on a goal of 200 32K 1 handed swings in 10 minutes) and snatching and this gives me the perfect layout.

@Snowman, thank you, some great tips and practical advice there and many common threads with Ryan's template. I have actually ordered an HR monitor so will be sure to incorporate the MAF method. Hadn't thought of using it for swings but will also look into that. I will be sure to check out your training log too.

@MattM , thanks for the tip, I'll look him up!
 
@Ryan Toshner, great post - thanks.

I will quibble with only one thing you've said - pace matters. Your idea of nose-breathing for long distance is perfect, I agree, but there is such a thing as "junk mileage" and that's to be avoided.

-S-
 
@Ryan Toshner and everyone, if you are a current, StrongFirst-certified instructor, please let me know and I will add that to your setup here. It will show under your name, and it will also give you access to an instructor-only section of the forum.

Likewise, any members of our StrongFirst Leadership (Team Leaders, Seniors, Masters) that are here, please let me know and I will make sure your setup reflects that.

-S-
 
I think Al has also been advocating going slower than you are used to along the lines of Maffetone and letting your pace increase naturally over time as you stay below your heartrate threshold, or in this case nose-breathing ability.
 
@Steve Freides - thanks for chipping in. In this context, would junk miles be to keep going at all costs when it might be better to call it a day (or maybe slow to a brisk walk), or have I misunderstood?

@jca17 - thanks for that, I'll certainly look to incorporate that thinking...
 
Junk is usually the result of being too tired, over trained, etc. You can learn the relationship between your running pace and your hear rate.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
Junk would be a lot slower pace than MAF.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, Steve, but I've always understood "junk miles" (for running and cycling) to be a faster pace than MAF. Too fast to focus on and improve aerobic health, as MAF would; not fast enough to truly improve speed and abilities, as intervals or hard/fast sessions would; fast enough to stress the body, without a targeted training benefit. It's what many runners and cyclists do every time they go out -- doing as well as they can do that day, which is pretty hard, but not TOO hard. They would be better off to "go easy" (MAF or lower) some days, and go really hard on other days.
 
We've just heard the word used differently. We agree that a pace and HR need to be planned and the plan executed. Too fast isn't good, and too slow isn't, either.

-S-
 
@Steve Freides How is slow-paced running different from walking? And walking is good, correct? I would have thought any kind of "moving" is good. Perhaps I am missing a context here.
 
@Abdul, what @Stan Kansiewicz said - there are paces and heart rates (and durations, etc.) that serve to train different energy systems. If the goal is improved distance running performance (5k and up, let's say), then a base of easy miles is the heart of any program, and different kinds of speed work are added in relatively small doses. Running less than at one's appropriate easy/recovery pace confers no or very few benefits, and the fact that one is tempted to do it at all means one is likely overtrained.

As I've mentioned many times here, Professor Jack Daniels wrote a book called, "Running Formula" that details training paces, the energy systems the work on, and using a formula based on recent race performance, exact paces for every runner. It's not simple stuff, e.g., I recall from my own training that I would run 1/4 miles at a certain paces with roughly equal times of work and rest, but if I increased that pace slightly, on the order of 5 seconds faster for 1/4 mile, then the desired recovery time would go up dramatically because it crossed some sort of boundary.

This is certainly _not_ my area of expertise, but I know enough to have bought the Daniels books and used it in my own training in my early 40's and, although I'd been running for a couple of decades by then, I set a lifetime 5k PR at age 45 after training as Daniels advised. I was very careful to run at the paces and for the times and distances he advised, and he made it clear that there was to be _no_ training in between the paces he gave for each person.

Walking is good, of course, but again, one must ask, "Good for what?" For GPP, for health, it's wonderful. IMHO, however, most people misuse walking as some form of "almost running" - walking briskly hold no attraction for me whatsoever. I have no science to support this, but I am convinced that brisk walking is one of those "in between" things that, for most people, doesn't accomplish as much as relaxed walking combined a well-chosen, more vigorous activity would.

My "well-chosen, more vigorous activity" is lifting weights, as you might imagine. :)

-S-
 
Just one more word on the subject of running pacing. I have always found it easier to run well fast than to run slowly. When, in the past, I had layoffs from running, I would return by running faster for maybe 3 minutes at a time or so, often twice a day, and as I felt my strength returning, I would gradually increase the length of each session, reduce my running pace, and decrease the frequency of the sessions until I was back and what was comfortable for me, which was 30-60 minutes, 4-5 days per week.

-S-
 
@Steve Freides, thanks for this, there is clearly much for me learn and look into around all of this. I've seen your recommendation for the Daniels book previously, and whilst it may be a bit advanced for me at the moment, it sounds like it would be a great resource, if only to improve my own understanding of the various aspects at play here.

Thanks again.
 
I had some some great advice on this thread, and having completed the race just wanted to express my thanks to all that chipped in above, particularly for the training advice from @Snowman and the template from @Ryan Toshner.

In summary I did better than I had hoped, keeping up a decent pace and not too much trouble with the obstacles. I also lost some weight over the course of the training and at least maintained strength, so all in all a successful training period.

Thank you strongfirst!
 
@David S, glad you're satisfied with your training and your results, and thank you very much for reporting back to us.

-S-
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Back
Top Bottom