Kettlebell Kettlebells StrongFirst

[watchnerd]

It's a particular use of kettlebells to do a LOT of work, spreading the load over the whole body. This can be modulated to any energy demand -- slow cadence and continuous with light to moderate weight (mostly aerobic) to glycolytic (moderate and continuous for any period of time) to A+A (alactic with a short effort/repeat and long rests with the kettlebells down between repeats). While doing this, you can train power with a quick hardstyle clean, and a hardstyle jerk that uses the hips and knees. Arm muscles are worked hard with holding the bells in the rack. Shoulders are worked with the rack and the overhead position. Abs are working hard throughout the movement. The whole body is loaded as long as the bells are off the ground.

So the they're good for working all those muscles in a training session where you can do a large volume output, repetitively produce power, ensure consistent energy demands, and focus on execution. It's a great strength endurance option. For any single aspect of what it's good for, there may be better options... but for the whole combination of what it's good for, you'd be hard pressed to find a better exercise: quads, calves (dip and drive), hamstrings and glutes (hinge), forearms/grip, biceps and abs strength and endurance, overhead position, cardiovascular output, energy production, internal effort regulation, mental discipline... and more.

As to what might be the carry-over... I'd say it's a great GPP exercise. I don't know if there would be any carryover to weightlifting. I'm kind of curious, and actually experimenting with this a bit as I'm on a hiatus from the barbell until mid-January.

Thanks for the extended write-up.

I do like the double-kettlebell aspect, as I've found, generally, double kettlebells do carry over as accessories to offset imbalances created by the barbell.

Although I'm not sure what the proper term is. If the barbell bi-lateral, are double kettlebells double unilateral?

And, yes, I'm on barbell vacation, too, until spring warms up the garage lifting platform.

 

[Kozushi]

It's a particular use of kettlebells to do a LOT of work, spreading the load over the whole body. This can be modulated to any energy demand -- slow cadence and continuous with light to moderate weight (mostly aerobic) to glycolytic (moderate and continuous for any period of time) to A+A (alactic with a short effort/repeat and long rests with the kettlebells down between repeats). While doing this, you can train power with a quick hardstyle clean, and a hardstyle jerk that uses the hips and knees. Arm muscles are worked hard with holding the bells in the rack. Shoulders are worked with the rack and the overhead position. Abs are working hard throughout the movement. The whole body is loaded as long as the bells are off the ground.

So the they're good for working all those muscles in a training session where you can do a large volume output, repetitively produce power, ensure consistent energy demands, and focus on execution. It's a great strength endurance option. For any single aspect of what it's good for, there may be better options... but for the whole combination of what it's good for, you'd be hard pressed to find a better exercise: quads, calves (dip and drive), hamstrings and glutes (hinge), forearms/grip, biceps and abs strength and endurance, overhead position, cardiovascular output, energy production, internal effort regulation, mental discipline... and more.

As to what might be the carry-over... I'd say it's a great GPP exercise. I don't know if there would be any carryover to weightlifting. I'm kind of curious, and actually experimenting with this a bit as I'm on a hiatus from the barbell until mid-January.

But what does it do that S&S doesn't? I don't mean this in any kind of cynical way. I'm an amateur "fighter" (if you like) as you know.

 

[Kozushi]

Thank you, although I think I already roughly understood the form difference.

That's why I asked about *intent*.

Or to put it differently:

What is the purpose of training the hardstyle long cycle?

After all, there aren't hardstyle long cycle competitions and it's not a sport in its own right.

What are the particular benefits, especially compared to other power, strength or endurance training options?

Unless the intent is just to have something to do for its own sake with no intention for carry-over to a different sport or other activity. Which is fine.

I hope I'm not coming across as difficult, I'm genuinely curious and interested, but trying to understand what it might offer someone who isn't a fighter or a kettlebells-only person.

Isn't the new programme specifically for "fighters"?

 

[watchnerd]

Isn't the new programme specifically for "fighters"?

I can't really tell.

The OP says:

"The product is geared towards combat athletes but it’s absolutely perfect for any kettlebell enthusiast."

So absolutely perfect for everybody who likes kettlebells, but extra absolutely perfect for fighters?

 

[Sauli]

There are hundreds of different ways to get a "good workout".

I'm hoping the designers of the program had something more differentiated in mind than simply that.

Pavel has designed those programs. If it's from Pavel, it's gold.

 

[Anna C]

But what does it do that S&S doesn't? I don't mean this in any kind of cynical way. I'm an amateur "fighter" (if you like) as you know.

Well there are two questions there, actually:
What does LCCJ do that swings and get-ups don't?
What does this new program do that the S&S program doesn't?

On the first question I'd say there's more in common than there is different, but could speculate on a few differences, given a similar amount of overall work.
On the second question I'd have no idea, as I know nothing about the new program.

 

[taro]

Less space is needed for SALC.
Maybe less kettlebells (than S&S) ..

When will this PROGRAM be released?

 

[watchnerd]

Pavel has designed those programs. If it's from Pavel, it's gold.

And I don't think Pavel would ever say the purpose of one his programs is just to get a "good workout".

In fact, he hates the term, if I recall.

 

[watchnerd]

What does LCCJ do that swings and get-ups don't?

If nothing else, it adds variety.

I could never do S&S "by the book", always mixed it with other strength training, as I just got bored doing the same two exercises day in and out for weeks on end.

Not to mention a reduction in pattern overload.

 

[barrak]

If nothing else, it adds variety.

I could never do S&S "by the book", always mixed it with other strength training, as I just got bored doing the same two exercises day in and out for weeks on end.

Not to mention a reduction in pattern overload.

S&S is meant to build our strength and endurance. Once we're Simple strong, we should "diversify our investment." If one is financially secure (achieved Simple), it would be counterproductive for them to keep all their wealth in fixed income assets (S&S). I'm dabbling with stocks (Olympic lifting) this new year.

I'm still in awe at how S&S strengthened my core in particular... from struggling to roll to elbow with a 10 lb dumbbell to confidently getting up with a 110 lb sandbag, not to mention hiking and cleaning to shoulder said bag.

 

[Kozushi]

Well there are two questions there, actually:
What does LCCJ do that swings and get-ups don't?
What does this new program do that the S&S program doesn't?

On the first question I'd say there's more in common than there is different, but could speculate on a few differences, given a similar amount of overall work.
On the second question I'd have no idea, as I know nothing about the new program.

Oh, hahaha! Okay!

 

[Kozushi]

S&S is meant to build our strength and endurance. Once we're Simple strong, we should "diversify our investment." If one is financially secure (achieved Simple), it would be counterproductive for them to keep all their wealth in fixed income assets (S&S). I'm dabbling with stocks (Olympic lifting) this new year.

I'm still in awe at how S&S strengthened my core in particular... from struggling to roll to elbow with a 10 lb dumbbell to confidently getting up with a 110 lb sandbag, not to mention hiking and cleaning to shoulder said bag.

Some investments are long term and I don't trust stocks. I like fixed income assets.
I see it more as just switching one thing for another and starting over again. I'd rather be very good at few things and keep progressing at them (or maintaining them at a high level) than bad at many.
This is all philosophy stuff I'm spouting now. There is of course a lot to be said for trying lots of things and for diversity in training even if it's just for the sake of variety itself. But, there is always a tradeoff.
It's interesting how people can see things very differently. I "get" the desire of lots of people to keep things varied, but my personality I guess is different. I find it fresh and exciting to get better, stronger and more proficient at a smaller range of skills. That's all pretty exciting for me! Imagine struggling to do TGUs with a shoe and then 6 months later handily doing them with a 40kg kettlebell (that was my experience.) The 32kg swings are still challenging, but less and less so.
Cutting out other things during the pandemic has enabled me to get a lot better at S&S, and I'm even doing snatches now, which I couldn't do much of before. No judo means I've got more "wear and tear" available to me. I'm hoping to be a lot stronger before the quarantining ends and that I'll be able to keep the new strength!

 

[John DeStefano]

But what does it do that S&S doesn't? I don't mean this in any kind of cynical way. I'm an amateur "fighter" (if you like) as you know.

Just taking a stab at it here - I've never trained Cl+J before other than prepping to cert.

Dbl Cl+J is king of hypertrophy in the kettlebell world, per Dan John I believe. Not to worry for fighters regarding weight classes as this program seems to be single bell.
Cl+J trains upper body ballistic in addition to lower body ballistic. S&S is only lower.
Cl+J adds to the stabilization requirement found in the GU. You have to lock out, stabilize, and balance quickly under a moving weight.
Compound movements/more moving parts means more load on the entire system, meaning excellent conditioning.

Overall I would say simply different, not better or worse.
Just throwing my two cents in. Really looking forward to this. I've been wanting to train Cl+J for a while, and after attending Strong Endurance decided the three program series in the manual would be my next endeavor when I finish what I'm currently training. Now I'll have to pick between starting with 550 (or was it 551...?) or this new material.

 

[Kozushi]

Just taking a stab at it here - I've never trained Cl+J before other than prepping to cert.

Dbl Cl+J is king of hypertrophy in the kettlebell world, per Dan John I believe. Not to worry for fighters regarding weight classes as this program seems to be single bell.
Cl+J trains upper body ballistic in addition to lower body ballistic. S&S is only lower.
Cl+J adds to the stabilization requirement found in the GU. You have to lock out, stabilize, and balance quickly under a moving weight.
Compound movements/more moving parts means more load on the entire system, meaning excellent conditioning.

Overall I would say simply different, not better or worse.
Just throwing my two cents in. Really looking forward to this. I've been wanting to train Cl+J for a while, and after attending Strong Endurance decided the three program series in the manual would be my next endeavor when I finish what I'm currently training. Now I'll have to pick between starting with 550 or this new material.

Thank you. I guess the charm of the Cl&J over the snatch is that you can work with a heavier bell.
All very interesting and I also can't wait!
It's clear that S&S will work as a perfect base to tackle this new programme (which I'll try to add onto S&S, not replace it, if that's possible.)

 

[barrak]

Some investments are long term and I don't trust stocks. I like fixed income assets.
I see it more as just switching one thing for another and starting over again. I'd rather be very good at few things and keep progressing at them (or maintaining them at a high level) than bad at many.
This is all philosophy stuff I'm spouting now. There is of course a lot to be said for trying lots of things and for diversity in training even if it's just for the sake of variety itself. But, there is always a tradeoff.
It's interesting how people can see things very differently. I "get" the desire of lots of people to keep things varied, but my personality I guess is different. I find it fresh and exciting to get better, stronger and more proficient at a smaller range of skills. That's all pretty exciting for me! Imagine struggling to do TGUs with a shoe and then 6 months later handily doing them with a 40kg kettlebell (that was my experience.) The 32kg swings are still challenging, but less and less so.
Cutting out other things during the pandemic has enabled me to get a lot better at S&S, and I'm even doing snatches now, which I couldn't do much of before. No judo means I've got more "wear and tear" available to me. I'm hoping to be a lot stronger before the quarantining ends and that I'll be able to keep the new strength!

Your portfolio is heavy on fixed income but not wholly so, I deem. You have a healthy position in a stock index fund (Judo).

Totally agree with you on the variety tradeoffs. In the extreme, day trading (unchecked variety) is for the young and gullible.

 

[Gravytrain]

Just taking a stab at it here - I've never trained Cl+J before other than prepping to cert.

Dbl Cl+J is king of hypertrophy in the kettlebell world, per Dan John I believe. Not to worry for fighters regarding weight classes as this program seems to be single bell.
Cl+J trains upper body ballistic in addition to lower body ballistic. S&S is only lower.
Cl+J adds to the stabilization requirement found in the GU. You have to lock out, stabilize, and balance quickly under a moving weight.
Compound movements/more moving parts means more load on the entire system, meaning excellent conditioning.

Overall I would say simply different, not better or worse.
Just throwing my two cents in. Really looking forward to this. I've been wanting to train Cl+J for a while, and after attending Strong Endurance decided the three program series in the manual would be my next endeavor when I finish what I'm currently training. Now I'll have to pick between starting with 550 (or was it 551...?) or this new material.

I think we might find the new CJ program will be found (roughly speaking) in the SE manual. just guessing.

 

[Gravytrain]

Hector (strong as hec)had told me sometime ago that when he was doing programs of LCCJ he felt like he could tear people apart on the mats and he's pretty strong already.

S&S gave me innumerable benefits on the mats. I have a hunch this will take it to the next level.

 

[Bauer]

@Kozushi:

Inside the clean and jerk lives a swing, a press, and a bit of a squat. Give me ten minutes and one kettlebell, and I will give you power, stamina, resilience, and mental toughness all in one tidy package. It’s all about legs and lungs, guys, and if you follow this to the letter that is exactly where you will feel it. After hard work on the clean and jerk, everything else will feel like a party.

Source : "The Ultimate Kettlebell Exercise for Martial Conditioning | StrongFirst" The Ultimate Kettlebell Exercise for Martial Conditioning | StrongFirst

LCCJ will probably be a bit better at building upper body strength/ power endurance than S&S.

 

[watchnerd]

S&S is meant to build our strength and endurance. Once we're Simple strong, we should "diversify our investment." If one is financially secure (achieved Simple), it would be counterproductive for them to keep all their wealth in fixed income assets (S&S). I'm dabbling with stocks (Olympic lifting) this new year.

I'm still in awe at how S&S strengthened my core in particular... from struggling to roll to elbow with a 10 lb dumbbell to confidently getting up with a 110 lb sandbag, not to mention hiking and cleaning to shoulder said bag.

I understand the intent, but it's not the only road to Rome, especially if one is already strong in non-kettlebell modalities.

 

[Kozushi]

@Kozushi:


Source : "The Ultimate Kettlebell Exercise for Martial Conditioning | StrongFirst" The Ultimate Kettlebell Exercise for Martial Conditioning | StrongFirst

LCCJ will probably be a bit better at building upper body strength/ power endurance than S&S.

Important quotes from it:

I was asked a question the other day: “What is the go-to kettlebell exercise for martial conditioning?” Well, pick your poison; you really couldn’t give a bad answer.

• Are kettlebell swings good for the martial artist? Uh, yeah!
• Or could you argue against the get-up? No, not really, there are a ton of benefits hidden inside a get-up.
• What about the snatch? Certainly the Tsar of the kettlebell world would be a great addition to any martial arts training regimen.

Like I said, pick any of these and you would be correct, but what if you found yourself on the proverbial desert island of exercise and could only choose one kettlebell movement to keep in your training quiver. The answer is easy. The one-arm clean and jerk.

*****

Yes, you need a solid strength foundation and the best way to get that is a steady diet of deadlifts and presses a la Pavel’s Power to the People!, but the one-arm clean and jerk is the one-stop shop for martial conditioning.