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Kettlebell A question on A+A progression

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Matt Piercy

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I've been reading about the A+A protocol and I listened to a discussion about it on the Rdella training podcast. I'm really interested in doing it to help me with my weight loss goal. I've found two different progression protocols on this message board. One is a PDF and the other was a link to a strong first article. I'm sure both would work fine.

But I've been wondering if just doing as many sets of ten (doing 10 per minute) as I can, while maintaining power output, would be just as good? Back off when I need to and go nuts when it's in the tank. wouldn't that be just as effective?
 
Hi, @Matt Piercy!

My two cents:
1. A+A isn't any better at making you loose weight than any other training protocol that involves lifting. In fact, you would probably be better off with something stimulating EPOC, which is the exact opposite of A+A. Unfortunately, the old and boring you can't out run/lift a donnut is still standing strong;
2. Generally speaking, if you want to use energy systems the way Al (Ciampa) explains in A+A, you'd contain the working period so you don't sollicitate lactate production, and 10 swings are out of this time frame for most. The general consesus is 5 reps for a comfortable snatch, so swings - that are a bit faster - could go up tu 6, 7 at most;
3. Go nuts is exactly the far opposite of lazy endurance, which is the idea A+A is built on. This is the single, most important thing to understand in A+A: stay away from going nuts or anything related, be lazy instead. The concept is: you should be able to do the movement for a long, really long time. Once you use (relatively) heavy weights, you understand what you're doing is crazy. A jack*** like me was able to swing way beyond half his bodyweight for more than an hour, ammassing over 200 repetitions, feeling nothing at the end of the session but more power than what I had at the beginning.

I see A+A is a topic that's becoming more and more popular by the minute, and I couldn't be happier about this, but it's a matter that needs to be adressed properly, as I feel people are having the same problem that I had and am still sort of having: understanding it's nature, it's purpose and it's beautiful simplicity. It's really an astonishing and wonderful training method.

Because no thread is complete without him, the Master himself could probably chime in: @aciampa.

@Anna C, @Harald Motz, @banzaiengr.
 
Agree with @Frank_IT

It can help with weight loss, just as any other type of training can -- providing some stimulation to your body, and some calorie expenditure. But it will not result in weight loss unless you're in a calorie deficit.

Sets of 10 will not work as well as sets of 5.

One thing I would add and emphasize is that is has to be VERY POWERFUL and VERY HARD set of 5. Heavy swings work, but heavy snatches work better. Then fully recover. Then repeat. For a long session (much longer than an S&S swing session).
 
One thing I would add and emphasize is that is has to be VERY POWERFUL and VERY HARD set of 5. Heavy swings work, but heavy snatches work better. Then fully recover. Then repeat. For a long session (much longer than an S&S swing session).

@Anna C , my S&S swing session takes around 20 to 30 minutes. Would that qualify as "much longer" or are we talking about e.g. 40+ minutes?
 
@Tobias Wissmueller
Al said that on average you should aim for 30 repeats with a minimum of 20 repeats. So stay in the 20-40 repeats area.

EDIT: Don't think in minutes, but repeats. Some people will do well on EMOM, some will rest 1:20 between repeats and others up to 2min. So the total time to complete 30 repeats will differ from person to person. Don't try to force e.g. EMOM if you can't keep up the power in your swings/snatches.
See @Harald Motz' A&A+A thread. He regularly posts HR graphs and you'll see that over time rest periods naturally decrease.
 
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One thing I would add and emphasize is that is has to be VERY POWERFUL and VERY HARD set of 5. Heavy swings work, but heavy snatches work better.
How heavy? For sets (repeats) of 5, is 10RM too light? If one bell is 10+ but the next bell (+8kg) is only 3RM, is it better to do sets of 5 with 10 RM, or sets of 1-3 with 3RM?

Sorry - hopefully this is helpful for @Matt Piercy
 
@Anna C , my S&S swing session takes around 20 to 30 minutes. Would that qualify as "much longer" or are we talking about e.g. 40+ minutes?

Tobias, A+A is a complete different lifting method. What @Anna C wanted to say (I think), is that S&S is 100 swings in 10 sets and than go to the get ups. If you embark in A+A lifting (and I absolutely agree: the snatch is the best movement, closely followe by LCCJ or C&J), you must use one lift for a minimum of time/repeats if you want to reap the benefits, with a heavy weight and maximum force production (halving the reps per set will allow you to go a little bit heavier, but not by much). @Kettlebelephant is right, EMOM or 1:XX is a good starting point, but it's not written in stone; in A+A, you start your next repeat (or set) when you're fresh, so there is nothing certain. Stick to intervals for the beginning though, it's a good strategy. You'll se the avarage 30 minutes of A+A are way different than the 30 minutes of S&S.

It's a difficult concept, I understand, and it's even harder to put into words... Remember this very thought I've been having of A+A (and it's working for me): if you're thinking too much, you're probably doing it wrong. Yeah, it's that simple, as Anna said: lift, put the bell down, recover, lift, put the bell down, recover, lift, basically forever.
 
I've never had as hard of a time grasping a training concept as much as I have A+A. Thank you for your responses. That was helpful. Btw- I'm eating in a calorie deficit. I'm trying to boost my conditioning and maintain muscle mass/ strength (as much as possible) during the process.
 
How heavy? For sets (repeats) of 5, is 10RM too light? If one bell is 10+ but the next bell (+8kg) is only 3RM, is it better to do sets of 5 with 10 RM, or sets of 1-3 with 3RM?

Sorry - hopefully this is helpful for @Matt Piercy

I'm not on Anna's level, but 10 RM will allow you a shorter rest period, where a for 3 RM you could do 1 rep or 2 and develop from there. You can mix them too, i.e.: 2 sets of 5 reps of 10 RM and 1 set of 1/2 reps with 3RM.

I've never had as hard of a time grasping a training concept as much as I have A+A. Thank you for your responses. That was helpful. Btw- I'm eating in a calorie deficit. I'm trying to boost my conditioning and maintain muscle mass/ strength (as much as possible) during the process.

You're not alone, Matt. Anna can confirm I was having the same issues. The fact is: it look too simple and too easy to understand, when in fact it is that simple, easy and effective.
 
Frankie IT, you said a C&J would be more effective. That happens to be my favorite movement. I'd like to use double 24's. I don't know my rep max right now, but I'd say 12-15. Or does singles work? If so, I'd use a single 32. I'd probably be about a 7rm on that. I'd have to confirm all this. I don't rm too often
 
Here's my best visual explanation for the difference between my S&S swings and A+A swings... you can see especially on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th reps I'm putting every single ounce of available power into it. Maximum power and explosiveness. Get a challenging weight and give it all you've got.



Don't make the mistake of thinking the "easy" or "lazy" part means easy swings. It doesn't. It just means that the session overall has an easy, lazy quality to it... because you never really get sweaty or hot or panting... you just put out a hard effort and recover and repeat.

How heavy? For sets (repeats) of 5, is 10RM too light? If one bell is 10+ but the next bell (+8kg) is only 3RM, is it better to do sets of 5 with 10 RM, or sets of 1-3 with 3RM?

That's a good question and I'll try to answer using the 32kg video. At that time, I could do a set of 10 swings with the 32kg, but they would look more like the 24kg swings in the S&S video linked above. Still good swings and chest-high, but not max power like that.

If the next bell is only 3RM, it kind of depends on what the limiter is. Might need to explore that a bit. If it's grip -- first of all, USE CHALK. It makes a huge difference on heavy swing and you can get a lot more quality work done. There are more intracacies of the grip to work on, too... but I'll leave it at that for now.
 
Here's my best visual explanation for the difference between my S&S swings and A+A swings... you can see especially on the 3rd, 4th, and 5th reps I'm putting every single ounce of available power into it. Maximum power and explosiveness. Get a challenging weight and give it all you've got.



Don't make the mistake of thinking the "easy" or "lazy" part means easy swings. It doesn't. It just means that the session overall has an easy, lazy quality to it... because you never really get sweaty or hot or panting... you just put out a hard effort and recover and repeat.



That's a good question and I'll try to answer using the 32kg video. At that time, I could do a set of 10 swings with the 32kg, but they would look more like the 24kg swings in the S&S video linked above. Still good swings and chest-high, but not max power like that.

If the next bell is only 3RM, it kind of depends on what the limiter is. Might need to explore that a bit. If it's grip -- first of all, USE CHALK. It makes a huge difference on heavy swing and you can get a lot more quality work done. There are more intracacies of the grip to work on, too... but I'll leave it at that for now.

Thank you, Anna, you are an inspiration. When you do your a+a swings, do you do any grind movements like presses or getups? pushups, maybe?
 
Frankie IT, you said a C&J would be more effective. That happens to be my favorite movement. I'd like to use double 24's. I don't know my rep max right now, but I'd say 12-15. Or does singles work? If so, I'd use a single 32. I'd probably be about a 7rm on that. I'd have to confirm all this. I don't rm too often

I've been away from the Forum for a really long time... But... Are you the guy who was push pressing the beast? And that was push pressing double 24s for an insane amount of reps and setes on the minute? That is of a little help, but I need to know that because of this: don't-ever-forget-the-time-frame.

It's the most imporant detail of A+A, and once the concept is solid, details must be dealt with. A long cycle clean and jerk reps, by my experience and the one of others, seldom allows more than three reps, two for most people. That is a clean, a brief stop in the rack, a powerful jerk, a brief stop overhead, dropping back and stopping again in the rack. If you're just doing the firs clean, then three is much more doable. I've never heard of anyone able to do four, though. 12 to 15 rep max isn't heavy enough. If you can go so high with good form, you need to move to a heavier bell. Single 32 would be a better option, yes. Single arm C&J, it works wonders and Al himself said it has it's purpose and it would be a good thing to mix singles and doubles.

Not testing the RM is to me a good thing, if you're not a competitive lifter. I suspect that you, like me, haven't got access to a 36 kg bell, which would seem the perfect weight (you could probably do 4 good repetitions).

Keep in mind that I was adviced to use the snatch for the first blocks of A+A, as it is the best exercise for the protocols. It's powerful, covers lots of muscles and it's wonderful to understand the concept. I also prefered to try C&J, but I can say it was the best for me to follow what I was told. In fact, like I said in another A+A discussion, the next two blocks I did with swings have been far less effective, even though the weight difference was very big.
A+A is based on power production, and there's no exercise with kettlebells that is superior to the snatch for this. Plus, it's fast.

I also tried double cleans for a brief moment: again, way, way inferior to single kettlebell snatch, with the same weight of the doubles.
 
That's a big help Anna, thanks. I understand everything much more after all this.

Al, Anna and Harold are the go to folks for A+A but if I may. Matt, sounds like you are familiar with S&S. When you have tested for S&S or when you have done the max swings with the next bell lower than your session bell, remember how you felt. The huffing and puffing, the feeling of total drain of energy from the muscles that were used. A+A is the exact opposite of that.

A+A works best also with an aerobic component. My understanding from the lead folks is running is best but rucking, walking, biking, and possibly swimming could also be done. After becoming familiar with your MAF numbers you will want to keep the LSD (aerobic) portion at or under your MAF. Shoot for a minimum of 3 hr. per week.

As someone who battles with body weight I can tell you, and it seems that you understand this, diet is King in the fat reduction area. I tried for decades to out train a bad diet, it's better than being a couch tater but again, diet is King.

Not sure if that helps.
 
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I also tried double cleans for a brief moment: again, way, way inferior to single kettlebell snatch, with the same weight of the doubles.

Personally, I love double cleans for A+A. First, it's a drill I just enjoy the feel of. Second, I like how it allows you to overload the ballistic hinge compared to single bell snatches or swings. In my experience, the biggest disadvantage of double cleans is that both hands are working on every set, so each hand gets less recovery time between sets.

I am not a fan of the C&J or push press for A+A, mainly a personal preference as I just don't enjoy doing these drills as much as snatches, cleans, or swings.

A+A works best also with an aerobic component. My understanding from the lead folks is running is best but rucking, walking, biking, and possibly swimming could also be done. After becoming familiar with your MAF numbers you will want to keep the LSD (aerobic) portion at or under your MAF. Shoot for a minimum of 3 hr. per week.

I have also found low intensity, steady state locomotive aerobic exercise to be a great complement to A+A KB repeats. In my experience, even 1 hour a week makes a difference in how I feel, although in addition to any dedicated cardio "exercise," I also play about 3 hours of full court basketball once a week (which has a significant aerobic demand, although not steady state or low intensity), and until recently spent a total of about 30 minutes a day walking my dog.
 
How heavy? For sets (repeats) of 5, is 10RM too light? If one bell is 10+ but the next bell (+8kg) is only 3RM, is it better to do sets of 5 with 10 RM, or sets of 1-3 with 3RM?

I never think in terms of RM for A+A. I use the heaviest bell I can while maintaining good technique for the duration of a session (or often 4kg lighter).
 
Personally, I love double cleans for A+A. First, it's a drill I just enjoy the feel of. Second, I like how it allows you to overload the ballistic hinge compared to single bell snatches or swings. In my experience, the biggest disadvantage of double cleans is that both hands are working on every set, so each hand gets less recovery time between sets.

I am not a fan of the C&J or push press for A+A, mainly a personal preference as I just don't enjoy doing these drills as much as snatches, cleans, or swings.

Double cleans definitely serve a purpose, I do like them too, but after being a little sceptic, I fell for the snatches. That's my personal experience, at least, and it's good to have others having and reporting different feelings! :)

Although I think it's a great exercise of his own, I don't like push press for A+A neither.
 
Frank IT. I have push pressed the 48k (I haven't done it since, and I don't remember if I tried), and I have done allot of reps with the 24k but I think it was single arm jerks done in a wave (1,2,3,4,5,5,4,3,2,1,2,3,4...)

So when it comes to things like this. I have to figure out where I'm really at. I'm actually a terrible trainee. Most the times I just do what sounds fun (usually an explosive press), or new (like this). I think it really holds me back.

Snatches have been brought up a few times. I always veer away from them because it's a terrible lift for me. I know it's my form. I can do a 16k we'll enough, but the minute I go to 24k I fall apart. I know I have the strength, but I just can't seem to get the lift. So I mostly avoid them or 1/2 snatch.
 
I am not an authority in A+A and I don't have much experience, but for me the main idea is to do a set of explosive ballistics (4 snatches with 32kg in my case) after which I am breathing through the nose and walking around until my HR will get back to comfortable level. Then I repeat the process 20-30 times. My rests are less than a minute on the begining but later can be more like 2 minutes. Recently I practiced A+A with the HR monitor, but only to check the results after I finished. Here they are:

Screenshot_20180401-165807.jpg

I was still going by the feel so these lines are not perfect. Is my way of thinking about A+A correct?
 
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