A quote from S&S Revised edition

Trever

Level 4 Valued Member
“You have conquered the Timeless Simple. Respect. You have stuck to a “boring” program for many months and achieved a major milestone. Most people never get this far; they get distracted by the latest fad and lose their way.”

I’m part way through the book and this paragraph made me chuckle because it describes me. The only difference is “latest fad” for me is other Strongfirst programs or methods.
I really want to commit to this program and reach Timeless Simple or better but I hate the idea of months of not doing A+A snatching, double clean/press/frontsquat and BB deadlift.
Currently at a body weight of just under 140lbs I can do 5 untimed TGU’s per side using 28kg and regularly do A+A snatch with a 24kg.

I like the idea that committing to S&S will make everything better in the long run, but I definitely understand why some people can’t commit.
 

Bauer

Level 6 Valued Member
Hehe, in a way, I am the opposite: I am good at following programs, but the programs are not good at following me :D

The prescribed pace of progress is usually too fast for me and then I will change something in the program because I cannot keep up. (Which is easier with S&S than with other programs, luckily).
 

ClaudeR

Level 5 Valued Member
Hehe, in a way, I am the opposite: I am good at following programs, but the programs are not good at following me :D

The prescribed pace of progress is usually too fast for me and then I will change something in the program because I cannot keep up. (Which is easier with S&S than with other programs, luckily).
I am exactly the same way!
 

barrak

Level 5 Valued Member
“You have conquered the Timeless Simple. Respect. You have stuck to a “boring” program for many months and achieved a major milestone. Most people never get this far; they get distracted by the latest fad and lose their way.”

I’m part way through the book and this paragraph made me chuckle because it describes me. The only difference is “latest fad” for me is other Strongfirst programs or methods.
I really want to commit to this program and reach Timeless Simple or better but I hate the idea of months of not doing A+A snatching, double clean/press/frontsquat and BB deadlift.
Currently at a body weight of just under 140lbs I can do 5 untimed TGU’s per side using 28kg and regularly do A+A snatch with a 24kg.

I like the idea that committing to S&S will make everything better in the long run, but I definitely understand why some people can’t commit.
The good thing about S&S 2.0 is that it leaves you with plenty of energy to do other things without abandoning it. For example, on any given day I also do one or more of the following with light weights to perfect patterning; PTTP, hiking, steel mace practice, and mobility drills.

The program even encourages you to jolt your system occasionally. A tough hiking/rucking trail or chopping firewood are my go to jolt activities this summer. I'm sure A+A snatches or long cycle C&J would work just as well come winter time.
 

Molson

Level 5 Valued Member
“You have conquered the Timeless Simple. Respect. You have stuck to a “boring” program for many months and achieved a major milestone. Most people never get this far; they get distracted by the latest fad and lose their way.”

I’m part way through the book and this paragraph made me chuckle because it describes me. The only difference is “latest fad” for me is other Strongfirst programs or methods.
I really want to commit to this program and reach Timeless Simple or better but I hate the idea of months of not doing A+A snatching, double clean/press/frontsquat and BB deadlift.
Currently at a body weight of just under 140lbs I can do 5 untimed TGU’s per side using 28kg and regularly do A+A snatch with a 24kg.

I like the idea that committing to S&S will make everything better in the long run, but I definitely understand why some people can’t commit.

Personally, after spending over 20months on S&S, and loving it, I think you might be overthinking it. There is no magic after achieving Simple or Timeless Simple. It is a greatly tailored program for starters or for aiding other sports. But if you can snatch with 24kg, do 28kg getups and do other lifts, you’d be almost in the same place. Less S&S adapted, but ahead with other skills. As Al said, there are no ‘gym goals’ in A+A, which does not give some kind of magic goal as S&S standards, 1/2 BW press or so. But same levels of strength, mobility, endurance can be achieved in other ways, so if you like what you are doing and it suits you, maybe there is no need to abandon that.
 

Trever

Level 4 Valued Member
Personally, after spending over 20months on S&S, and loving it, I think you might be overthinking it. There is no magic after achieving Simple or Timeless Simple. It is a greatly tailored program for starters or for aiding other sports. But if you can snatch with 24kg, do 28kg getups and do other lifts, you’d be almost in the same place. Less S&S adapted, but ahead with other skills. As Al said, there are no ‘gym goals’ in A+A, which does not give some kind of magic goal as S&S standards, 1/2 BW press or so. But same levels of strength, mobility, endurance can be achieved in other ways, so if you like what you are doing and it suits you, maybe there is no need to abandon that.

That makes sense. Probably over thinking it. Thanks.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
Personally, after spending over 20months on S&S, and loving it, I think you might be overthinking it. There is no magic after achieving Simple or Timeless Simple. It is a greatly tailored program for starters or for aiding other sports. But if you can snatch with 24kg, do 28kg getups and do other lifts, you’d be almost in the same place.
For average sized guys, I think much of the best ROI is at around the 24 kg weight for Simple.

I think there is then a big potential fork in the road in terms of effort vs gains:

Go to double KBs at 24 kg, or keep with single KB up to 32 kg?

One could argue that double KBs are the longer term progression path, and flipping to double KB work earlier gives more time to build up the skill base.
 

IMayAgainKnowChris

Level 5 Valued Member
I’m curious to see where sticking to the plan goes. Made the transition from the 16 to the 24 fairly easily. I have made some body comp changes (probably a lot to do with diet though). The 32 seems like a lifetime away. Wonder how long it will take but I don’t really have any sort of a timeline for progressing.
I could Try to reason why I want a program with structured pull-ups or presses but it’s nice to keep it simple with S and S and I really don’t have “goals” other to get stronger, then hopefully pack a little muscle on. So no real need to fiddle with the program. Only about 3 months in but It’s done me right so far!
 

North

Level 5 Valued Member
I’ve always liked this series of articles placing the StrongFirst programming into context:


Given it’s now 5-6 years old some updates need to occur. When is it appropriate to move on to Q&D? What about A&A? My answer is after achieving timeless simple at least and having a run at the ROP (whether or not you achieve a 1/2 BW MP).
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
I’ve always liked this series of articles placing the StrongFirst programming into context:


Given it’s now 5-6 years old some updates need to occur. When is it appropriate to move on to Q&D? What about A&A? My answer is after achieving timeless simple at least and having a run at the ROP (whether or not you achieve a 1/2 BW MP).
"Gym goals" vs other goals is an important criteria to consider.

By the time an average man is doing 24 kg Simple, he is no longer unfit. This may be why the Russian military allegedly made it their baseline -- good enough to be a fit soldier.

Moving immediately on to 32 kg Simple, to me, starts down the road of "single KB specialization", which ultimately has a shorter runway than switching to double KBs.

Once I got to 24 kg, I started learning doubles. Once I could do 2 x 24 swings, presses, and snatches, going back and reworking on single KB swings and TGU was pretty cake.

I also found double KB work to be much much more time efficient from a volume / tonnage POV.

And volume is really the meat and potatoes of beyond-novice progress.
 
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Bauer

Level 6 Valued Member
Interesting points. I will add this quote by Pavel:
Pavel in S&S said:
If you are healthy, pay attention to detail and have patience; there is an excellent chance you will own these weights, regardless of your age or bodyweight. I strongly urge you to pursue this goal. While you will benefit from lighter bells, the real magic takes place with the Simple and heavier ones.
I guess 24 kg (for males) already makes a huge difference in terms of GPP for the general modern day person. 32 kg might bring more WTHE with it, though.
 

Molson

Level 5 Valued Member
Interesting points. I will add this quote by Pavel:


I guess 24 kg (for males) already makes a huge difference in terms of GPP for the general modern day person. 32 kg might bring more WTHE with it, though.
Well it’s hard to argue (with Pavel). What I was trying to say that, even when S&S did not exist yet, there were protocols which could get you to the same point with other KB lifts, thus, the OP should not be bothered that much if he is doing already something else, but consistently.

It’s highly likely that once one, lets say, makes 28kg his working weight in A+A, he will have the Simple standard in the bag. It would only be a case of grooving the TGU really, maybe some peaking with snatches or swings, before testing.
 

Bauer

Level 6 Valued Member
Well it’s hard to argue (with Pavel). What I was trying to say that, even when S&S did not exist yet, there were protocols which could get you to the same point with other KB lifts, thus, the OP should not be bothered that much if he is doing already something else, but consistently.

It’s highly likely that once one, lets say, makes 28kg his working weight in A+A, he will have the Simple standard in the bag. It would only be a case of grooving the TGU really, maybe some peaking with snatches or swings, before testing.
I agreee. The body is a marvelous thing and adapts to a vast amount of stimuli. High rep, low rep, A+A, S&S, barbell, KB, whatever.

S&S is great at developing a lot of qualities with very simple programming and very few exercises and minimal equipment and thus is a great, realistic general plan for a wide audience (which seems not be true for metcon style training or, say, Coach Sommer's programs).
 

Molson

Level 5 Valued Member
The specific weight standards are both the beauty and the flaw of S&S. At one side, it had made the program complete as for setting a clear threshold before advancing to other lifts, which PM 2.0 from ETK did not do so strictly, leaving this for interpretation. On the other hand, it created this ‘sexy’ goal that affects egos, and we seen multiple discussions here on this forum that people get a bit too much attracted to this rather than progressing the skills and strength themselves.

But after all, this would always happen with any other measuring stick that allows one to compare themselves with others.
 

Molson

Level 5 Valued Member
"Gym goals" vs other goals is an important criteria to consider.

By the time an average man is doing 24 kg Simple, he is no longer unfit. This may be why the Russian military alleged made it their baseline -- good enough to be a fit soldier.

Moving immediately on to 32 kg Simple, to me, starts down the road of "single KB specialization", which ultimately has a shorter runway than switching to double KBs.

Once I got to 24 kg, I started learning doubles. Once I could do 2 x 24 swings, presses, and snatches, going back and reworking on single KB swings and TGU was pretty cake.

I also found double KB work to be much much more time efficient from a volume / tonnage POV.

And volume is really the meat and potatoes of beyond-novice progress.

I like the view on ‘single KB specialization’.

This is somehow a part of StrongFirst that the double work is out of it’s mainstream. Until recently that the Strong! Had been brought under official SF stuff, you could get an impression that doubles are almost neglected, as there are only secondary and/or advanced programs. And their limited use in certifications, as well as the pre-SF fact that it was only ‘allowed’ once you get to the rare Return of the Kettlebell level (after those 1/2bw MP, SSST) all created impression that it’s almost reserved for super humans. Many people here will agree, same as Geoff Neupert or Dan Jon do, that those can, and in many cases are beneficial, to be introduced much earlier.
 

Anders

Level 5 Valued Member
This is an interesting topic about single kettlebell work versus double kettlebell work.

An important question to ask is: Why bother to use kettlebells in the first place ?

If all you want is pure strength gain or hypertrophy then nothing can beat a barbell.

I think what is unique about kettlebell are these things:

1) Soft on the joints because you are not locking them in a certain position.

2) Versatility and ease of use: I have a couple of kettlebells in my relatively small apartment. That would not have been possible with a barbell, since I then would also need a squat racket and a bench etc etc.

3) Time-efficient: In the S&S you get both conditioning and strength. The same for ETK. It is harder to get this with the barbell.

4) In kettlebell you have some one-exercises does it all exercises: Like the snatch (Strength and conditioning for the whole body) and maybe also the clean and jerk. I don't think you have this with barbells or with bodyweight.

***
I think one-arm kettlebell work is considered the foundation. First you do the simple and then you do the ETK. Now you have a lot of practice on these four exercises. You also have power, a good amount of explosiveness in your hips and a you have reached a certain level of work capacity. After that you can go on to two kettlebell work. I am also guessing that technique-wise it is easier to autocorrect mistakes done with a single kettlebell, then if you are starting out with one kettlebell in each hand.
 

BCman

Level 6 Valued Member
To answer the original post.
I like this minimal program idea, as it allows one to focus one of two lifts, while maintaining or slightly improving on their other lifts over time.
I don't know if this link will work.


 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
Many people here will agree, same as Geoff Neupert or Dan Jon do, that those can, and in many cases are beneficial, to be introduced much earlier.
Indeed.

Even keeping tonnage equal...

2 x 16 vs 1 x 32

2 x 24 vs 1 x 48

2 x 32 vs 1 x 64

...you can see where this goes.

1 x 48 is a rarity. 1 x 64 would be unachievable by most humans who aren't potential Strongman competitors.

The one arm specialization tops out much earlier in terms of total tonnage.

That's not to say there aren't some advantages (anti-rotation training) to getting strong with 1 arm, but it definitely has a shorter runway.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
But if you want high tonnage, why not just use a barbell ?
Well, in my case, I do both.

And double KBs provide unilateral training benefits that the barbell doesn't.

Lastly, there are modality differences.

I never do barbell snatches for reps, nor will I ever, because of technique pollution.

KB snatches for reps, on the other hand, are a different matter.

This allows for a strength endurance KB stimulus different from pure power BB snatches.
 
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