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Kettlebell A Revelation from the Forum (thanks!)

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jadam318

jadam318

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I'm new here. My name is Adam. I started S&S this winter. I'm 5'11" tall and about 220 pounds. I don't know my BMI, but my belly still jiggles when I brush my teeth...so its not where I want it to be quite yet.

I want to pass a quick "thank you" on to you active posters here in the forum. Until today, I was missing something in the S&S programming. I started S&S back in January using a 16KG bell for everything. Since then I have worked 6 days a week (most weeks), and a couple of weeks ago I relegated the 16KG bell to warm-up duties only. I'm not using only the 24KG kettlebell for both swings and TGUs.

But the swing has been kicking my butt. As a matter of fact, my thought this morning was, "Man, 10 TGUs with 24KG just felt easy. Why do swings with this thing feel so hard?" Thanks to digging through some old forum posts, I found my flaw. I was striving for 100 non-stop swings before moving up to 32KG. For whatever reason (maybe I misread the book, maybe I'm just ignorant), I did NOT realize that the standard for S&S allows for pauses between sets of swings. This morning, I did 60 swings (3 sets of 10 per arm), rested about a minute and a half or two minutes, and then did 40 more swings (2 sets of 10 per arm). There is no way my technique wasn't suffering, even though I was focusing as hard as I could on it.

I learned this solely by reading on the forum here, so thank you to everyone who posts here! Tomorrow morning I will take a run at the S&S standard with 24KG using pauses after each set. I suspect I will be shopping for a 32KG kettlebell very soon.
 
jadam318 said:
don't know my BMI
Click to expand...

BMI

You don't need to know your BMI. BMI is a extremely poor method for determining anything.

A more effective measurement is...

Calculate Your Waist-Height Ratio - Omni Calculator

Whoever said, "You waistline is your life line" was on the money. The majority of individual with large a large waistline are Insulin Resistant.

Insulin Resistances means you are more prone to Inflammation, Diabetes, Cancer and other health issues.

jadam318 said:
did 60 swings (3 sets of 10 per arm), rested about a minute and a half or two minutes, and then did 40 more swings (2 sets of 10 per arm). There is no way my technique wasn't suffering, even though I was focusing as hard as I could on it.
Click to expand...

Muscle Fatigue Produces Poor Technique

The downside of continuing to perform a movement in a fatigued state is that technique falls apart.

What end up happening is the movement is altered. Essentially, you end up performing a different exercise and learn how to preform the movement incorrectly.

Solution

Once you technique falters, Stop the movement and rest.

Your intensity can still be maintained with Cluster Sets; take a short rest periods (15 to 60 seconds) between repetition in a set, then cranking out some more repetition.

Cluster Set in Resistance Training is High Intensity Resistance Interval Training. It's basically High Intensity Interval Cardio Training, only with resistance.

Kenny Croxdale
 
@jadam318 when doing S&S you should be taking a rest between each set of 10 swings. Remember to use the "talk test" as your guide between sets, do not rush on to the next set, S&S is not designed as a METCON type of program. Most folks spend anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes getting their 100 swings done, excellent technique and power generation in each swing is the goal, not the time it takes. As you move up in weight, you may need extra time between sets until you get more adapted. Doing the test is another matter, but that is only done once a month or less, and you should still be resting between sets, although much shorter.

Do not get sucked into a "I will make simple in 90 days" mentality, S&S is a long term, sustainable program. It is better to train as often as you can consistently, even if it "slows" your progress, than to push too hard and injure yourself or quit the program. Well, in my opinion anyway.
 
Follow Up:

I applied what I learned in the forum yesterday to my workout this morning. Basically, @kennycro@@aol.com , I did exactly what you're talking about. For swings, I did 10L, 15 sec rest, 10R, 15 sec rest, 10L, 15 sec rest, 10R, 15 sec rest, etc... until I completed 5 sets of 10 with each arm. Here's what I noticed:

  1. The workout felt easy. My breathing stayed well under control, my heart rate never seemed to spike (no monitor, so can't conclusively verify this), and I felt like I could keep going with the 24KG bell.
  2. My form did not feel like it decayed at all. Without the need for more oxygen occupying so much of my brain, I could focus on the movement.
  3. Speaking of form, I noticed an area in my swing that needs some attention. Again, with the extra ability to focus on the movement, I realized that my shoulder may not be staying packed the way they should. I will work on perfecting the movement with the 24KG until I get a 32KG bell ordered and shipped. I need to video a workout or two so I can more objectively analyze my own form.
  4. I needed MUCH less time after completing swings to start GUs. Actually, I felt like I could have flowed right into them with the 15 seconds of rest I was taking between swing sets. I didn't do that, though. I waited about 1 minute.
  5. In summary, this morning's workout was killer! I feel like I own the 24KG bell. I will repeat this morning's workout at my regular intervals (6 days per week) until my 32KG bell arrives (probably a week or two depending on where I order). My focus will be on the movements.
Thanks again, forum folks, for being open with your experiences! I have learned from you. @Anna C , your old video of a complete workout was extremely helpful.
 
@jadam318, sounds like you're moving in the right direction!

You'll see if you keep reading that most recommendations are to keep going further in that direction for your daily practice -- i.e., to do 10 swings, rest for something like 45 seconds to a minute, do the next set of 10 swings (other hand), again plenty of rest, etc. If you started each set of swings OTM it would take you 10 minutes to do your S&S swings. This is probably good for daily practice. Then push the pace towards 5 minutes total once every two weeks or so.

You have a copy of the S&S book? It explains about putting a premium on power and technique. You'll get the most out of it this way.

Feel free to post a forum check, too! Keep us posted.
 
@jadam318 I got this from the link that Kenny posted.


The waist-height ratio is calculated as waist measurement divided by height measurement W ÷ H. For example, a person with a 28 in (71 cm) waist and 5 ft 7 in (170 cm) height has a waist–height ratio of 0.42. (you can use inches or cm for the measurements)
  • Extremely slim - <0.34 both for men and women
  • Healthy - 0.43 to 0.52 for men and 0.42 to 0.48 for women
  • Overweight - 0.53 to 0.57 for men and 0.49 to 0.53 for women
  • Very overweight - 0.58 to 0.62 for men and 0.54 to 0.57 for women
  • Morbidly obese - >0.63 for men and >0.58 for women
 
@Anna C I do have a copy of the book. It looks like I got so excited to get started with the program that I did not give it as much attention as I should have. I will give it a re-read, and I will experiment with longer rests between swing sets. How good I felt during this morning's workout was actually very encouraging. It makes me anxious to move up KB weight.

This raises a question, though. I'm a desk jockey. Other than my morning S&S session, a daily walk around the block at lunchtime, and weekend hikes/bikes/paddles, I don't get much cardio exercise. My wife and I have a baby due at any minute, and my goal is to be able to haul a kid up any mountain I want to hike. Should I consider more cardio (jogging or cycling) in addition to S&S?

@Bunn Thanks. I followed Kenny's link, but I didn't see that. I'm at work (don't tell the boss), so I didn't take the time to really dig around. Based on my pants size I'm at .51, but I have some belly above that. I imagine I fall into the overweight category listed there. I'll measure tonight and see. This looks like a worthy goal to pursue, as I have read plenty in the past about the dangers of carrying belly fat.
 
jadam318 said:
This raises a question, though. I'm a desk jockey. Other than my morning S&S session, a daily walk around the block at lunchtime, and weekend hikes/bikes/paddles, I don't get much cardio exercise. My wife and I have a baby due at any minute, and my goal is to be able to haul a kid up any mountain I want to hike. Should I consider more cardio (jogging or cycling) in addition to S&S?
Click to expand...

That sounds pretty well rounded to me. I'd suggest continue with the other activites as they are and focus on S&S for a while, progressing as described in the book, and see if it brings you some positive effects. Keep going with that as long as you see progress. You're building capability, which can then be used in weekend hikes/bikes/paddles. Once a month or so, push yourself a bit more (in time/distance or intensity... with time/distance as the better choice) in one of these... this is also described in the S&S book.
 
jadam318 said:
Follow Up:

I applied what I learned in the forum yesterday to my workout this morning. Basically, @kennycro@@aol.com , I did exactly what you're talking about. For swings, I did 10L, 15 sec rest, 10R, 15 sec rest, 10L, 15 sec rest, 10R, 15 sec rest, etc... until I completed 5 sets of 10 with each arm. Here's what I noticed:

  1. The workout felt easy. My breathing stayed well under control, my heart rate never seemed to spike (no monitor, so can't conclusively verify this), and I felt like I could keep going with the 24KG bell.
  2. My form did not feel like it decayed at all. Without the need for more oxygen occupying so much of my brain, I could focus on the movement.
  3. Speaking of form, I noticed an area in my swing that needs some attention. Again, with the extra ability to focus on the movement, I realized that my shoulder may not be staying packed the way they should. I will work on perfecting the movement with the 24KG until I get a 32KG bell ordered and shipped. I need to video a workout or two so I can more objectively analyze my own form.
  4. I needed MUCH less time after completing swings to start GUs. Actually, I felt like I could have flowed right into them with the 15 seconds of rest I was taking between swing sets. I didn't do that, though. I waited about 1 minute.
  5. In summary, this morning's workout was killer! I feel like I own the 24KG bell. I will repeat this morning's workout at my regular intervals (6 days per week) until my 32KG bell arrives (probably a week or two depending on where I order). My focus will be on the movements.
Thanks again, forum folks, for being open with your experiences! I have learned from you. @Anna C , your old video of a complete workout was extremely helpful.
Click to expand...

Yes! One of the principles that SF repeats at each of the user courses is continuity of PRACTICE. Think of each time you get out your kettlebell as practice not workout. Now that you have met and surpassed the basic standard, you could try not counting the reps at all (a tip I got from this community). Just stop when you feel a decrease in form/power. Not counting reps allows you to focus even more on maximum power and good form. In short, practice. I think it allows for much more focus and concentration on how you feel at the moment and the quality of each swing. You can set a timer for total workout time if you need some structure. Count the reps once a month or something to check on progress.

You can also do other exercises this way. After attending a PlanStrong seminar, I started using around half of my rep maximum in repeat sets for things like presses. This is not the full PlanStrong methodology but one good principle from it.

For example,

- Traditional lifting: reps 10, 10, 10.
- SF style 5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5. or 3,45,6,5,4,3,4,5,6,5, ... or sets of 4s. With short rests between. You may find, higher total work volume, heavier weight, and better rep quality by taking this approach to all lifting, except special cases like barbell powerlifts 5s or ladders etc.

I took this approach to pushups as well. Not counting and stopping a set when form started to fail. No sloppy, grinding pushups. Some days I would feel stronger than others and do more reps but it was irrelevant to the practice. Hard to control the ego though.
 
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jadam318 said:
@Anna C I do have a copy of the book. It looks like I got so excited to get started with the program that I did not give it as much attention as I should have. I will give it a re-read, and I will experiment with longer rests between swing sets. How good I felt during this morning's workout was actually very encouraging. It makes me anxious to move up KB weight.

This raises a question, though. I'm a desk jockey. Other than my morning S&S session, a daily walk around the block at lunchtime, and weekend hikes/bikes/paddles, I don't get much cardio exercise. My wife and I have a baby due at any minute, and my goal is to be able to haul a kid up any mountain I want to hike. Should I consider more cardio (jogging or cycling) in addition to S&S?

@Bunn Thanks. I followed Kenny's link, but I didn't see that. I'm at work (don't tell the boss), so I didn't take the time to really dig around. Based on my pants size I'm at .51, but I have some belly above that. I imagine I fall into the overweight category listed there. I'll measure tonight and see. This looks like a worthy goal to pursue, as I have read plenty in the past about the dangers of carrying belly fat.
Click to expand...
The cardio benefits you get from long duration locomotive work (running, rucking, cycling, x-country skiing, etc) are different from the benefits you get from S&S, and certainly are an excellent compliment to it. Well worth it from my experience, although you want to be sure it's in sync with your goals...
 
@Bauer Thanks for the link. I tried 15s rest yesterday just to see where I stand in relation to the standard. I've been reading since then, and I'm modifying to take a longer rest on most days. As a matter of fact, I'm reading up on Maffetone's Method, which (so far, at least) seems to enforce the longer rest periods you're talking about. Maffetone's "MAF hear rate" for me appears to be somewhere around 130-135 bpm.

I'm still learning what "anti-glycolytic" means and how all of this works. These concepts are so far removed from what I have been taught through the years that I find myself truly interested in understanding some of the science behind it. Applying it to what I feel during a workout, though, and how my body responds in fat loss and aerobic performance improvements, I'm inclined to believe what I'm reading.

Anyway, thanks again for the link. What has your experience been with this type of training? What results have you seen?
 
jadam318 said:
@Anna C I do have a copy of the book. It looks like I got so excited to get started with the program that I did not give it as much attention as I should have. I will give it a re-read, and I will experiment with longer rests between swing sets. How good I felt during this morning's workout was actually very encouraging. It makes me anxious to move up KB weight.

This raises a question, though. I'm a desk jockey. Other than my morning S&S session, a daily walk around the block at lunchtime, and weekend hikes/bikes/paddles, I don't get much cardio exercise. My wife and I have a baby due at any minute, and my goal is to be able to haul a kid up any mountain I want to hike. Should I consider more cardio (jogging or cycling) in addition to S&S?

@Bunn Thanks. I followed Kenny's link, but I didn't see that. I'm at work (don't tell the boss), so I didn't take the time to really dig around. Based on my pants size I'm at .51, but I have some belly above that. I imagine I fall into the overweight category listed there. I'll measure tonight and see. This looks like a worthy goal to pursue, as I have read plenty in the past about the dangers of carrying belly fat.
Click to expand...
No, you're fine for cardio with all that. S&S is about all one really needs for it, I think, but going for at least one decent walk of over an hour a week will help to make sure you're getting enough low-intensity long cardio, which is important for heart health (why exactly I have no idea, but it's what the smart guys are saying on these forums.) S&S gets and keeps the heart rate up for a good while.
 
jadam318 said:
@Bauer Thanks for the link. I tried 15s rest yesterday just to see where I stand in relation to the standard. I've been reading since then, and I'm modifying to take a longer rest on most days. As a matter of fact, I'm reading up on Maffetone's Method, which (so far, at least) seems to enforce the longer rest periods you're talking about. Maffetone's "MAF hear rate" for me appears to be somewhere around 130-135 bpm.

I'm still learning what "anti-glycolytic" means and how all of this works. These concepts are so far removed from what I have been taught through the years that I find myself truly interested in understanding some of the science behind it. Applying it to what I feel during a workout, though, and how my body responds in fat loss and aerobic performance improvements, I'm inclined to believe what I'm reading.

Anyway, thanks again for the link. What has your experience been with this type of training? What results have you seen?
Click to expand...
Maybe you're swinging a weight that's too light for you now. Remember that the goal is to get to using the 32kg bell for both exercises in S&S. There is a good reason for that
 
@Kozushi I do think that I'm ready for heavier weight. I hope to order a 32KG this weekend. When I was reaching for the wrong goal with swings, I thought I had more time to get there. As I sit here at my comfy desk, though, with my ego chiming in...I can't wait to attack the heavier one! I'll let you know what my ego says after the 32KG bell gets here. Haha.

On a related note, there is a conversation I'm following here (Kettlebell brand and weight) about kettlebell brands. A couple of us are discussing whether the top-of-the-line bells (like Kettlebell Kings) are worth the premium over value brands (like Rogue). Any input on that?
 
At the risk of getting some flak from the gang...
I think if a persons goal is to train with kettlebells then it probably pays to get the best you can afford. If a persons goal is to get strong then a chunk of iron is a hunk of iron.
Personally with KB's... I go cheap.
(Bikes on the other hand....:))
 
jadam318 said:
@offwidth That's pretty solid logic. Since getting my mountain bike legs back under me is part of my goal, I think I'll save the coin and opt for the cheaper "hunk of iron." Good to see a cyclist here!
Click to expand...
And... the best way to get your bike legs back is to ride... lots...
 
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