Other/Mixed A Square Is A Rectangle But a Rectangle Isn't A Square

[Deleted member 5559]

@kennycro@@aol.com used this analogy in another thread about complexes. I thought it would be interesting to collect a list of training experiences that are not inversely true.

For example:

1. I find cycling helps my running but running doesn't help my cycling

 

[Steve Freides]

I find cycling helps my running but running doesn't help my cycling

That's an interesting choice. I always felt the opposite - running seemed to help my cycling but if I didn't ride, I still ran just fine.

-S-

 

[vegpedlr]

I find cycling and running complement each other well, in both directions. But the eccentric nature of running vs the concentric nature of cycling means they are distinct activities.

 

[offwidth]

Having done a boatload of both over the years, I think I have the same experience that @Steve Freides has had. However, I have found that varied a bit depending on the type of running and riding in question

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I find cycling helps my running but running doesn't help my cycling

I am not sure why. Part of it might be...

Cycling Is A Concentric Only Movement

There is no Eccentric component to cycling.

As we know greater muscle damage occurs with Eccentric Actions. That means in cycling the legs can be trained hard and will recover faster.

Running Is A Eccentric/Concentric Movement

The Eccentric Impact Force of each foot fall is between 3 - 5 time your body weight.

That means if you weigh 200 lbs, the impact force with each foot fall will be between 600 to 1,000 lbs of Eccentric Impact Force.

That is an enormous amount of Eccentric Force in running something like a mile; which decreases your recovery time.

Speculation

In your case, cycling may allow you to increase your leg strength while minimizing your recovery time due to the fact that there is not Eccentric Action involved.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[Steve Freides]

Cycling Is A Concentric Only Movement

I'm not sure what's considered concentric and what's consider eccentric in bicycling, but those of us who ride clipless pedal systems would tell you we do more than push - we try to pedal circles, pulling our foot back across the bottom of the stroke and pulling up after that.

-S-

 

[Snowman]

Running helps maintain ruck capability, but if I only ruck for a while, my calves yell at me when I start running again.

 

[Antti]

So far I have found that the bench press helps my overhead press but the overhead press doesn't help my bench press.

I started barbell training and expected to do well in the bench due to my kettlebell training. I got a good press but my bench was nothing special. Due to a little injury I took time off the bench and concentrated on the press, it went up, but when I returned to the bench it hadn't moved. A while later I got into powerlifting and did presses only sporadically, mostly for variety. After a while I improved my bench. I decided to try out a couple of sessions of pressing and did a big new PR after just a couple of sessions. And I don't think it was any kind of novice gains.

 

[vegpedlr]

I'm not sure what's considered concentric and what's consider eccentric in bicycling, but those of us who ride clipless pedal systems would tell you we do more than push - we try to pedal circles, pulling our foot back across the bottom of the stroke and pulling up after that.

-S-

The point of attaching your foot to the pedal is to be able to i weight the pedal on the upstroke. Most people push down with both legs at the same time. Pedaling circles is about stopping that, because nearly all the power is on the downstroke. Very little power is available at the bottom, very little is available from the hip flexors.

In any case, all parts of the pedal stroke are smooth concentric contractions. There is some eccentric stress in MTB, but that is due to rough terrain. It’s nothing like running. The best way to visualize eccentric stress is running or skiing downhill. Remember how sore that makes you? That’s because the quads are being pulled in opposite directions, resisting and controlling their lengthening under load to keep you from landing on your face.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

I don't want to spend too much conversation on my example but I do think it has to do with two aspects in my case.

1. I think cycling is more of a strength sport than running and it provides more leg strength than aerobic capacity. I have a much harder time reaching higher heart rates on the bike because my legs fail first. A stronger cyclist may be more limited by aerobic capacity instead of leg strength.
   
2. Cycling improves my turnover rate due to the higher cadences I can obtain similar to running on a decline. A better runner probably already has a high turnover.

 

[Antti]

Speaking of cycling and leg strength, I haven't noticed my cycling to help my squat but my squat has definitely helped my cycling. Heavy squats have made cycling much easier. But I never have truly trained cycling, just used it as an occasional mode of transportation. Of course, one may also question my squatting but I believe it's clearly relatively better than my cycling.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I'm not sure what's considered concentric and what's consider eccentric in bicycling, but those of us who ride clipless pedal systems would tell you we do more than push - we try to pedal circles, pulling our foot back across the bottom of the stroke and pulling up after that.

-S-

Cycling Is A Concentric Movement

Steve, cycling is a concentric movement. There is no Eccentric Action involves; no resistance involved in the "Lengthening of the muscles.

Pushing down on the pedals is a concentric movement.

Pulling up if you are clipped in or when your foot is strapped in, is a concentric movement.

Pulling Up

If you foot is strapped in, pulling up on the pedal while pushing down allow you to produce more power.

Misnomer Eccentric Side Note

There is no such thing as an Eccentric Contraction.

An Eccentric Movement means the muscles are being lengthened in a movement.

A Contraction Movement means the muscle are being shortened.

So, there's not such thing as an Eccentric Contraction.

An Eccentric Contraction is an oxymoron.

Ironically, Eccentric Contraction is a termed used in research, as well.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[offwidth]

 

[offwidth]

Additionally... one can do 'eccentric ' cycling. However this is only utilizing special stationary trainers designed for this. Not very mainstream. The jury is still out on its merit however.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I think cycling is more of a strengthC sport than running and it provides more leg strength than aerobic capacity. I have a much harder time reaching higher heart rates on the bike because my legs fail first. A stronger cyclist may be more limited by aerobic capacity instead of leg strength.

Cycling

Lance Armstrong's VO2 max is 85 milliliters of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute. An average untrained person has a VO2 max of 45 and with training can get it to 60."
Source: Super, Sure, but Not More Than Human

Lance Armstrong was a definitely exception the the rule. However, the fact that an average person can increase their VO2 max to 60 by cycling demonstrates that cycling can and does increase one's aerobic capacity.

I have a much harder time reaching higher heart rates on the bike because my legs fail first.

Biking and Heart Rate

It is easier to increase your heart rate running or on a elliptical because you body weight increases the work load on the heart. An Elliptical is basically a "Stand Up Bike" that you are pedaling.

Riding a bike decrease the weight load, which decreases the load on your hears.

With that said, you can achieve essentially he same elevated hear rate cycling as you can with running, if you push your cycling intensity high enough. I been able to do it with the individuals that I work with.

This is especially true with all out bike sprints.

Sprint Cycling Example

One individual that I worked with believe the same as you.

I put them on an Upright Bike and had them preform Dr Jamie Timmons' Sprint Protocol. SMIT (Superamaximal (High) Intensity Training.

1) 20 Second All Out Sprint.

2) 2 minute Recovery (slow pedaling on the bike.

Repeat the above sequence tow more time.

Age of the Individual 62.

Estimated Heart Rate Max: 158 (20 - 62)

Heart Rate After Third Sprint: 153; 98% of heart rate max.

Wait For The Bounce

After a sprint, wait about 30 seconds or longer to check you're/there heart. Their/you will dramatically bounce up.

A stronger cyclist may be more limited by aerobic capacity instead of leg strength.

Aerobic Capacity

This is where offwidth needs to chime, this is more of his area. I just start it off.

VO2 Max plays role in you aerobic capacity.

Just as important, if more so, it Lactate Threshold. Your body's ability to process and eliminate lactate is a major factor in your aerobic and anaerobic capacity.

Cycling improves my turnover rate due to the higher cadences I can obtain similar to running on a decline.

Cycling Turn Over

I'm not sure where you are going with this.

However, it does bring up another issue...

Eccentric Impact Force

To reiterate, running produces an enormous amount of muscle damage due to the Eccentric Impact Force.

Running down hill or on a Declined Treadmill magnifies the Eccentric Impart Force.

"The poison is in the dose."

Eccentric Impact Force from walking and running increase bone density.

However, too much running decreases low back bone density.

https://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/news/20030127/long-distance-runners-risk-bone-loss

"The women who ran the most had the lowest bone density. Each extra 10 km run per week was linked to 1% to 2% lower bone density."

Summary

1) Cycling can and will elevate your heart rate, when preformed correctly.

2) Cycling doesn't build bone density.

3) Running produces a lot of Eccentric Impart Force; running downhill/decline treadmill magnifies it even more.

4) Running increases bone density when the right "Dosage is used"; it decreases body density when the wrong dosage is used.

5) Running and Biking have a benefit. This brings up to "Use the right tool for the right job."

Kenny Croxdale

 

[IonRod]

A square can never be anything other than a square, a rectangle can be drawn in different ways, including such that fits the definition of a square.

The title of this thread makes it sound like square is the more versatile of the two. I reframed it to sound like the rectangle is the more versatile of the two. And I think a lot of falacies are made by trying to fit personal experiences into these narratives - which of the two modalities are more versatile.

Specificity of adaptation. That's the key idea. There is no one best exercise, no one best rep scheme or training intesity, it is all specific. If you compare two specific tasks, they will have proportional carryover to how many traits they share.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

the fact that an average person can increase their VO2 max to 60 by cycling demonstrates that cycling can and does increase one's aerobic capacity.

no dispute that it increases aerobic capacity but I find the leg stamina more unique for me than the aerobic capacity benefits.

Just as important, if more so, it Lactate Threshold. Your body's ability to process and eliminate lactate is a major factor in your aerobic and anaerobic capacity

I believe its common for the lactate threshold heart rate on a bike to be at a lower heart rate than runing which indicates to me that cycling has more localized lactate production and is more strength oriented than running is and why I believe it helps my running more so than the inverse. This actually makes me wonder what exercise has the highest lactate threshold heart rate and falls the furthest on the aerobic side of the strength/aerobic spectrum.

Cycling Turn Over

I'm not sure where you are going with this.

My natural running cadence is slower than my cycling cadence. Good runners have a much higher cadence and why I imagine training at that faster cadence on the bike helps.

which of the two modalities are more versatile.

Not the intent I had for the thread so I appologize if that's the turn it has taken.

Instead, the thread has mostly been about how and why my experience is wrong and that cycling doesn't help my running.

 

[IonRod]

Not the intent I had for the thread so I appologize if that's the turn it has taken.

Instead, the thread has mostly been about how and why my experience is wrong and that cycling doesn't help my running.

Neither was my intent to criticize you specifically. I was thinking about that idea and it didn't sit right with me since rectangle is obviously the more general term.

And I don't think your experience is wrong or that this thread is trying to tell you that. I think it is a showcase of how much personal experience influences this stuff since different people experienced this carryover differently. Which leaves me to conclude there is no one-way street in terms of carryover, it is all about which traits you prioritize, develop, focus on, etc.

 

[vegpedlr]

Cycling helps my running by the aforementioned cadence, probably also in part by my short legs. In triathlons, I find the bike to run transition fairly easy, as my pedal stroke and run cadence are similar. Cycling also helps my running by making a big base easier to build. The low impact nature makes bigger volume easier to accumulate compared to running. I’m able to run an occasional trail race up to half marathon with very little preparation due to my big cycling base. I’m not as fast as I was when I balanced my training more, and definitely more beat up at the end, but I can do it.

 

[Kristoffer]

Running helps maintain ruck capability, but if I only ruck for a while, my calves yell at me when I start running again.

Do you think that your running maintains the ruck capability without your strength work?
My experience is that running + strength/strength endurance maintains rucking very well.

It is my experience that you can increase your capacity for either running or rucking by doing the other activity in conjunction with KB ballistics/strength work, if you are not already a high level/intermediate athlete in that area.

However, only rucking will harden your feet, back and soul for the long haul...