A "What If" FSQ and HBBSQ

Steve Freides

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So far, I've found that:

A weight I can FSQ for 3, I can put on my back and High Bar BSQ for 5 with the same effort.

The question is: will this trend continue? I'm just back into squatting for a short cycle in advance of an SFG in about 5 weeks. IOW, if I training only my FSQ make significant progress in it, will I need to practice my HBBSQ much for a similar carryover to occur?

My current plan is a bunch of triples in the FSQ, put the bar on my back for the final set, and do 5 reps.

Comments welcomed.

-S-
 

Bro Mo

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I remember something in beyond bodybuilding about limiting front squat volume but I dont remember if it had anything to do with transfer between back and front squat.
 

Anna C

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The question is: will this trend continue? I'm just back into squatting for a short cycle in advance of an SFG in about 5 weeks. IOW, if I training only my FSQ make significant progress in it, will I need to practice my HBBSQ much for a similar carryover to occur?
My guess is that you'd be fine with this, mostly because your deadlift is so strong.

My current plan is a bunch of triples in the FSQ, put the bar on my back for the final set, and do 5 reps.
I guess if you do this as you go, you'll have a pretty good answer to the question. And you will be practicing your HBBSQ.

Some people might warn against mixing squat techniques like that, making it harder to find your groove in one or both, but I don't feel like it's a problem when I do it.
 

Steve Freides

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I'm taking the SFL as a student the second weekend in October and how to train for this is on my brain. So I'm just looking at the next 5-6 weeks or so.

My thought is that, as long a set of 5 with the same weight continues to feel like a set of 3 in the FSQ, one set of HBBSQ per session will be sufficient. That is my safe route through this - I am interested to know, but not willing to try unless a few folks tell me it will be OK, if doing HBBSQ less often will still be OK. If it _was_ OK, I'd rather do one more set of FSQ instead of that last set being HBBSQ.

-S-
 

Alan Mackey

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I've always found that, whenever my front squat and stiff legged deadlift numbers go up, my back squat and conventional deadlift improve as well.

Just my experiment of one subject.
 

Anna C

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I am interested to know, but not willing to try unless a few folks tell me it will be OK, if doing HBBSQ less often will still be OK. If it _was_ OK, I'd rather do one more set of FSQ instead of that last set being HBBSQ.
What is your "comfortable/max" HBBSQ 5RM, relative to your required SFL HBBS 5RM? If you're close (within 25 lb), then you're probably fine. If you have a ways to go (>25 lb), then you'd want to train for it more specifically.
 

Philippe Geoffrion

More than 500 posts
I've found that when I plan to do HBBS, the front squat makes an excellent warmup for it. A fine example of specialized variety that Pavel mentions in "PTTP Pro" is of an RKC member, I don't recall which, would warmup for his sumo deadlifts with his weaker stance, conventional and switch to sumo when they "felt heavy". Barring injury or technical issues/mobility, most can HBS more than they can FS. I think the FS helps with ALL squatting. The only issue may be a lack of practice with the lift, in your case the HBBS. There are obvious differences between the two like bar position and the descent pattern as the HB position will allow you to sit back a tad more, but for someone with a strong deadlift background, it shouldn't be much of an issue if you keep taking care of the posterior.
 

Steve A

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Steve, I'm surprised that the HBBS feel that difficult for you. My experience and that of partners and others I have known, we can do several more reps HBBS with the weight used for a FSQ. So I think if you want to do FSQ leading up to your "event" and maybe just practice the HBBS form a little when you get close, you will easily handle the event.
 

Steve Freides

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What is your "comfortable/max" HBBSQ 5RM, relative to your required SFL HBBS 5RM? If you're close (within 25 lb), then you're probably fine. If you have a ways to go (>25 lb), then you'd want to train for it more specifically.
The weights are all easy for me. For my age/weigth, I have to back squat 135 x 5, or 150 x 5 for the open age bracket. Neither is really a problem in the middle of a training session.

Steve, I'm surprised that the HBBS feel that difficult for you. My experience and that of partners and others I have known, we can do several more reps HBBS with the weight used for a FSQ.
That has been my experience as well - the HBBSQ is so easy it seems almost non-productive to practice it _if_ doing FSQ gets me to the same place.

Again, the weights I need for the moment are for the SFL, and as Pavel T. has said, those standards don't mean anyone is strong, just that they're not weak.

-S-
 

Geoff Chafe

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In Weightlifting the ratio is Back Squat 130% and Front Squat is 110%, both a precentage of Snatch. For what that is worth.

As a further gauge the Snatch and Clean and Jerk should be within 30kg of each other.

Anything outside of the range is a technical or positional strength issue.

My experience is the same. A heavy triple weight on Front Squat will get me 5-8 on a Back Squat.
 

Tirofijo

More than 500 posts
It is hard for me to relate to this post. My back squat is probably twice my front squat in terms of max effort.
Same here. Rather than Steve asking if he can use the front squat in lieu of back squat, wouldn't he be better served asking why his back squat is so low relative to his front squat?

I'm guessing the answer has something to do with the fact that you are a deadlift specialist. But still, shouldn't we work on our weaknesses? (Or did I miss a reason why you are not wanting to back squat?)
 

william bad butt

More than 300 posts
@Tirofijo

Same here. Rather than Steve asking if he can use the front squat in lieu of back squat, wouldn't he be better served asking why his back squat is so low relative to his front squat?

I'm guessing the answer has something to do with the fact that you are a deadlift specialist. But still, shouldn't we work on our weaknesses? (Or did I miss a reason why you are not wanting to back squat?)

It is very possible that we are the ones out of balance, not Steve. I'm not really sure.

I dont practice the front squat, I used to, but it's been a while. But I'm positive I could do 250 lb fairly certain, right now. With a few weeks of practice, I could probably work up to 315 lb, fairly certain. Maybe I could do more but this would be approaching my limit I imagine. I think a 315 lb front squat would be HARD for me, if not my max, fairly close to it. Whereas 315 lb is a easy/medium back squat for me, maybe like ~60%.

Regards,

Eric
 

Auburn

Double-Digit Post Count
In Weightlifting the ratio is Back Squat 130% and Front Squat is 110%, both a precentage of Snatch. For what that is worth.
I think most would agree those ratios should be based on the clean & jerk, not the snatch, if you are going to use ratios.

As a further gauge the Snatch and Clean and Jerk should be within 30kg of each other.

Anything outside of the range is a technical or positional strength issue.
Just a note that an absolute weight number is only accurate for the middle of the bell curve. Lighter people should have a delta much smaller than 30kg and stronger men will likely have a gap above 30kg.
 

Auburn

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The limiter on the front squat should be the mid back, not the legs. So, it kind of depends on what is limiting you. I don't know anyone who has driven their back squat up by solely training the front squat (despite the hypothetical ultimate Bulgarian athlete that never existed), but lots of people PR their front squat by solely training the back squat along with their normal pulling training.
 

Geoff Chafe

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@Auburn Yes, my mistake. Ratios are based off Clean and Jerk, and we like to see the Snatch around 85% of Clean and Jerk. They are essentially the same lift after all.

I have been out of the game for a long while.

Unless we are talking Top level national, International and Elites the difference between Sn and C&J will not be more than 30kg unless there is an issue. Even national and second tier national athletes will fall in this range.
 

Steve Freides

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In Weightlifting the ratio is Back Squat 130% and Front Squat is 110%. ... My experience is the same. A heavy triple weight on Front Squat will get me 5-8 on a Back Squat. ... Anything outside of the range is a technical or positional strength issue.
It is hard for me to relate to this post. My back squat is probably twice my front squat in terms of max effort.
I would point to @Geoff Chafe's idea that there may be technical issue with your front squat. It's more demanding in terms of mobility.

Rather than Steve asking if he can use the front squat in lieu of back squat, wouldn't he be better served asking why his back squat is so low relative to his front squat?
I would point to the same thing again. I don't think my numbers are unusual, and my skill at both kinds of squatting is about the same - equally unpracticed.

It is very possible that we are the ones out of balance, not Steve. I'm not really sure.
I would prefer me not being the odd man out here, so I'd rather say it's both your fault. :)

All kidding aside, for me, the Oly style of SQ, both front and back, are similar, and the low bar, PL-style back squat is a different creature entirely. I don't find it unusual that someone who really works their LBBSQ could get strong at that without a corresponding increase in FSQ because the lifts are that different, IMO.

-S-
 
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