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Kettlebell Absolutely Owning vs Training too light vs Greasing the Groove

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BillSteamshovel

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I suspect I have been quite conservative with kettlebell weights so far (12kg), so I recently bought an adjustable 18kg and a 20 and a 24kg bell. (80kg 64yo male novice)

I often read statements like "Increase the weight only after you absolutely own the (insert exercise name here) " ........Given that kettlebells are 1) expensive and 2) go up in relatively big jumps, I am concerned about 1) Spending heaps and 2) going too heavy.

I've carefully done various tests using an adjustable kettlebell and I have established that only 2kg can make the difference between doing 5 reps of a press and doing none at all ie 18kg press (5 reps, last one was a struggle so call it 4) vs 20kg press (impossible), and the increments available seem to be 4kg ie 16 20 24 28 32. A 1 rep max calculator confirms that a 4 rep max on 18kg = 1 rep max of 19.6kg

C'mon Bill, lets get to the point : What guidelines would you use to establish "absolute ownership" of a XYZkg TGU before trying XYZ+4kg ? And more generally how do different people define or be confident of "ownership" of any exercise

Am currently thinking 10 minute emom each side ie 20 TGUs (too many ?) with good technique and still feel fairly good - like you could do another 5 ? Is that too conservative ? I have also started doing presses at all of the significant stage points in the TGU in order to further check on stability and confidence. FWIW am reasonably happy with 14kg x 10 and have done a few get downs with 18kg but will not be doing any getups yet.

Are posts of this nature better to be placed in the training log ?
 
And more generally how do different people define or be confident of "ownership" of any exercise
Maybe some folks think that they ‘own’ an exercise. My perspective is that we can never really and truly ‘own’ an exercise. I still learn things from a shoe TGU.

And there is nothing wrong with being conservative, and kudos to you for letting into KB’s at 64 (also 64)

Plus great handle you have there…
 
What guidelines would you use to establish "absolute ownership" of a XYZkg TGU before trying XYZ+4kg ? And more generally how do different people define or be confident of "ownership" of any exercise
The guideline I use to establish ownership of a weight is: the point at which the form becomes unquestionably sound.

Internally I use the measurement of boredom. There comes a point where I start running out of obvious improvements to make. The reps become so easy that I get lost in thoughts about laundry or the next days schedule.

In essence there comes a point where the exercise becomes not just easy ; but, too easy .

So easy they're boring, uninteresting, and lack the ability to command my attention.
 
Thanks for the replies ................................ Just had a Eureka moment !

I could use the 1 rep max calculator as a guide ie 10 x 16kg = 1 rep max of 20.3 but more importantly 6 at 18.1 so when I feel comfortable and confident and bored at 16 then 18 is theoretically safe for 6 reps so should be able to manage 1 or 2 fairly easily. Similarly 10 x 20kg yields 4 @ 24kg

I guess I am a bit careful with TGUs because the consequences of getting it wrong seem to be quite bad ie the stories about the marine who knocked a few of his own teeth out and the gym that had to pay compensation when one member dropped a bell on another member. I had one get out of control when I first started off with 12kg and I just had to let it fall, there was no way I could stop it once it got away.

EDIT : On thinking about it further this 1 rep max idea doesnt really work ? - only needs the weight to wobble slightly and then gravity takes over quickly whereas on most other lifts the maths behind the calculator is fine, ie deadlift not as sensitive to poor technique because the weight is not balanced atop a single upright straight arm .
 
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The guideline I use to establish ownership of a weight is: the point at which the form becomes unquestionably sound.

Internally I use the measurement of boredom. There comes a point where I start running out of obvious improvements to make. The reps become so easy that I get lost in thoughts about laundry or the next days schedule.

In essence there comes a point where the exercise becomes not just easy ; but, too easy .

So easy they're boring, uninteresting, and lack the ability to command my attention.
What’s your philosophy on going up to the next bell? Do you wait for complete ownership? Are you setting a goal of X and moving up a size when you can do Y number of reps with the current bell?

Seems to be that if we are chasing strength and size (say wanting to be able to do double bell work with 32s) the answer would be different than if we are trying to improve density and work capacity. Plus there would also be where you are on your training journey, a beginner might be making large jumps at a faster pace due to NLP/newbie gains.

I’m basing mine off of what I believe to be my weakest lift (overhead press) and what I can comfortably do 6 reps with (my form can still use tweaking/optimization but I’m not getting hurt) and making the jump up 4kg to what should be a 1-2RM bell. By the time it’s made it to me with shipping I’m at the previous bell being a 8RM weight where I can slowly pepper in the 1-2RM bell into my sets to go up a size. I’m also fairly new to this style of training so my increases are a lot faster now with the intermediate bells (20-28kg)than they will be in a few months with heavier bells (32+). I’m guessing I’ll be with double 32s for 6 months or so before I go to the 36.
 
A 1 RM calculator doesn't work properly in real life.

If, let's say, you are a powerlifter, you are never to make [X] reps @ [X] % because you are used to lower reps. So, I normally a 10 RM is about 75% of your 1 rep max, but a powerlifter will probably do about 7/8 because of his training style.

If you are bodybuild trained, then you can probably do 12/14 reps @ 75% because you are used to longer sets. But not able to do 1 or 2 at your hypothetical rep max, you are used to longer sets, not to the tension needed for that weight.

For Get up's I use a double. If I am able to do 2 consecutive Get Up's with the same bell, without putting it down. I know I'm ready for the next one. From there I build up, start with 1 rep heavy, 4 medium, next session maybe 2 heavy, 3 medium. I never do more then 10 Get Up's (5/5)

For the other exercises, use the tripple progression system. First progression: build up to 5 sets. Progression 2: build up to 5 reps, each set. Progression 3: increase weight.

(For ballistic reps I double the reps to 10)
 
Tjerr - Thankyou - I will try that
For Get up's I use a double. If I am able to do 2 consecutive Get Up's with the same bell, without putting it down. I know I'm ready for the next one. From there I build up, start with 1 rep heavy, 4 medium, next session maybe 2 heavy, 3 medium. I never do more then 10 Get Up's (5/5)
 
I like the idea of rep maxes but you have to realize they are very, very individual, both in person and per exercise. Even similar exercises can have vastly different rep maxes, like just going from a vertical press to a horizontal press and so on. So you simply have to test it and then you'll know.

I see no reason to limit myself from the heavier loads if I can comfortably use them. I would pass on doing a lot of singles if a single rep was all I could do with a heavier kettlebell, but if I could do doubles or triples, I would like to incorporate some singles into my training.
 
Thankyou for all of the replies. I am still very interested in the "ownership" question and how others approach it. Something a bit odd just happened in tonight's training.

Warmed up then 2 x 12 in a row no worries - straight away did 2x16 no rest no worries - straight away did 2 x 18 no rest - more difficult than the 16s but no real problems. I remember a few weeks ago thinking 12 was awesome especially after I had one get away from me.

"What The Hell" effect or " Newbie Gains Effect" maybe even the "Shutup and Have a Go" effect.
 
There is a high skill component to a turkish getup as well as a strength component and so learning the skill well by practicing it - doing a lot of repetitions with a weight you can fully control is a good idea. Practicing outside or somewhere you can straight arm the kbell and get out of the way is also a good idea. Building this strong base will help you to climb up to heavier weights. Some people continue to build up the number of TGU repetitions with a very light weight on "variety" days or as part of their joint mobility. Some even use a shoe on fist instead of a weight as such.

So, when you can do 5 TGUs on each side and it feels easy then you can increase the weight of the second TGUs (eg +4kg) with the 1 and 3,4,5 done using your old weight (+0kg).

Another way of "feeling easy" would be able to do say 7-8 TGU on each side. Then you will feel more confident in being able to use step loading one in the 5 up to the next level.

Further details are explained in Simple & Sinister which includes many other tips on how to safely progress TGU. There are a few articles on TGU on the web site that are also worth reading for the nuggets around this topic they contain.
 
Maybe some folks think that they ‘own’ an exercise. My perspective is that we can never really and truly ‘own’ an exercise. I still learn things from a shoe TGU.
Ha! After switching to zero-heel footwear and barefoot home roaming this summer, I discovered I don't even "own" walking!

So yes... progress conservatively and touch base with the fundamentals at lighter loading every now and then.
 
I go by perceived level of effort. If it is around 3 out 10 with good form (maybe get a form check as well), then I will start adding a heavier bell with reduced reps for one set and gradually increase it from there.
 
If, let's say, you are a powerlifter, you are never to make [X] reps @ [X] % because you are used to lower reps.

If you are bodybuilder trained, then you can probably do 12/14 reps @ 75% because you are used to longer sets. But not able to do 1 or 2 at your hypothetical rep max, you are used to longer sets, not to the tension needed for that weight.

Powerlifters and Bodybuilders

As you mentioned, the training method used by Powerlifter is completely different than Bodybuilding and vise versa.

Powerlifting

The emphasis is on Maximum 1 Repetition Max Training; which requires heavy load, low repetitions and long rest periods.

Bodybuilding

This Hypertrophy Training Method is geared toward low to moderate load, moderate to higher repetition and shorter rest periods.

Bodybuilding fall more in to the category of Strength Endurance Training.

Due to the training differences, Powerlifter have very little Strength Endurance and Bodybuilders Maximum Strength is limited.

A great example of that is..

The Story Behind the Great American Squat-Off | BarBend

525 lb Squat For Reps


Platz managed an incredible 23 reps with 525 lbs

Hatfield performed 11 reps with 525.

1 Repetition Max

Hatfield Squatted 855 pounds to Platz’s 765 pounds.

1 Repetition Max Calculators

These calculators provide you with general guidelines.

I like the idea of rep maxes but you have to realize they are very, very individual, both in person and per exercise.

Individual Differences

One of the primary method in determining the training percentage for: Maximum Strength, Power, Speed, Hypertrophy or Strength Endurance is based on an individual 1 Repetition Max.

In a previous post, Steve Freides didn't agree with that method. Nor do I; for a multitude of reasons.

As Steve noted, it better to start off with something light and easy and ratchet it up. I agree with Steve.

For Get up's

Get Ups

This isn't a movement, along with other, that you should or could perform a 1 Repetition Max Effort with.

This movement is one should be started out with something like and easy and gradually increased.

Determining Training Percentages

The standard protocol of determining Training Percentage in many movements is based on performing a 1 Repetition Max.

An article that provide some good guideline is...


This article breaks down which Training Percentage is needed to elicit the right training effect.

Another method that is now being used to determine an individual 1 Repetition Max is...

Velocity Based Training

Velocity essentially equates to Power.

Power is trained and developed in...

1) Traditional Strength Exercises (Squats, Bench Press, etc) with load of 47-62% of 1 Repetition Max.

1 Repetition Squat Max with this method

If a lifter is able to perform a 250 lb Power Squat for Cluster Set Repetitions, their 1 Repetition Max would be between 403 - 531 lbs (47-62%).

The determinate factor of where the 1 Repetition Max falls is dependent on the amount of Power being produce with the 250 lb Power Squat.

On a personal note, this method works. I have used it in to determine my Competition Powerlifting Maxes.

2) Olympic Lift Movement, Power is displayed and developed with load of 70-80%

1 Repetition Squat Max with this method

If a lifter is about to perform a 185 Power Clean with Cluster Set Repetitions, their 1 Repetition Power Clean Max will fall 231 -264 lbs.

you simply have to test it and then you'll know.

Determining Your Personal Training Percentage to 1 Repetition Max

To reiterate, Training Percentage Calculators provide you with a guideline in determining your 1 Repetition Max.

As per Antii, one of the determinate factors is to measure how your Personal Training Percentages equate to your 1 Repetition Max.

Doing so, provides you with more individualized/personalized feedback that is specific to you.
 
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What’s your philosophy on going up to the next bell? Do you wait for complete ownership? Are you setting a goal of X and moving up a size when you can do Y number of reps with the current bell?
when I was doing S&S - I followed the 4 weeks step load configuration and was rewarded for it. i would say it matched me well enough even though there were slight differences.

when I was doing grease the groove - I waited until my body demanded more reps. there was an accidental set of ten that would kind of slip out. when I was practicing sets of five regularly.

I bet there's an 80/20 or 90/10 marginal rate of ownership where that's probably a practically acceptable point to move on from.

Anecdote:
notably, when I was deprived of my 32kg bell by late shipping on my order, I was practicing S&S and began to expand the volume to feel like I was still doing more work than before. at around 6 weeks of practicing 100/100 swings and 10/10 getups with my 24kg bell, I felt like things were approaching 100 percent complete ownership of the workload and my form was solidifying into very perfect repetitions. at some point soon after I began adding sets up to 200 reps, and as many as 30 getups per day. because I had come to so thoroughly own the movement that it started to deaden the sensation of the day's practice. from this experience, I imagine that 6-week step loads would have allowed for the closing of that gap from 80 percent perfect reps to 100 percent perfect reps, and effects my thinking about step loads for my practice going forward. for me - adding a week or two may be beneficial, for me.
 
Another 60 something just getting started. I have a tribe!! My ownership guideline for practice has two parts. First, is my form as perfect as I can make it with a practice mindset (i.e. would Anna C or Pavel agree that my form is OK)? Second, (a) can I do 10 x 10 1SW easily and (b) can i do TGUs 1 (L/R) X 5 easily? If the answer to all questions is "Yes" add weight. How much weight? As much as I can add while still completing an S&S practice using the waving laid out in the book. I have found that the weights used for TGUs are lighter and take longer to own than the weights for swings. Your mileage may vary. I am really stoked to read about your venture into this world in which strength is a skill. Strength to you.
 
I have established that only 2kg can make the difference between doing 5 reps of a press and doing none at all ie 18kg press (5 reps, last one was a struggle so call it 4) vs 20kg press (impossible),
It sounds like your pressing technique ought to be where you focus now, not the size of the kettlebell. Please work with an SFG, or post a press video here, or both.

-S-
 
Many thanks for all of the replies above, I will work through the posts again and summarise them in my gym diary.

And ..... yes Steve Freides, I have been a bit underwhelmed by my pressing abilities - will learn how to do videos and post one in a few days time.
 
It sounds like your pressing technique ought to be where you focus now, not the size of the kettlebell. Please work with an SFG, or post a press video here, or both.
G'day @Steve Freides - Thanks for the advice. I think you were right. Since date of your note above I completed Swing Press Sandwich then Dry Fighting weight. 18kg press has improved from 3 max reps single handed to 8 max reps DOUBLES yeeeehaa !! very happy, the programs work.

What do you reckon ....... Have I cashed in all of my newbie gains ? Am off to do a few months of Simple and Sinister now.
 
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