Bodyweight Active negative - antagonists vs synergists

[Anna C]

From my SFB manual, one of the Action Principles under Feed-Forward tension:

"Active negative-- in many exercises. Antagonists are brakes for amateurs; synergists for professionals."

Not sure who wrote those words, but I suspect it was Pavel.

I'm curious to hear any interpretations people may have about this concept.

 

[John sardos]

Hmmm..... less experienced lifters are fighting with the weight as experienced lifters are pulling/Embracing the weight?​

 

[william bad butt]

Not sure if this is what you mean... But with most lifts, I am able to load the spring (the stretch reflex), and explode out of the hole. Presses, squats, even deadliest and swings as well.

 

[coachnathanwhite]

The way I understand feed forward tension is you are training to override your body's strength governor mechanisms (brakes) which are set up very conservatively. By practicing creating as much tension as possible before the movement, you can train your nervous system to remove these "brakes." The more tension you have stored on the way down (negative), the easier you are going to get back up.

 

[John sardos]

Hmmm less experienced lifters are fighting the negative as experienced lifters are pulling the weight towards them

 

[Bauer]

From my SFB manual, one of the Action Principles under Feed-Forward tension:

"Active negative-- in many exercises. Antagonists are brakes for amateurs; synergists for professionals."

Not sure who wrote those words, but I suspect it was Pavel.

I'm curious to hear any interpretations people may have about this concept.

I would say, this quote is about managing tension. In real life, muscles work more or less together, so the biceps is actually contributing to a strong press, IIRC. Same with stabilizers and prime movers. Beginners are just not coordinated enough and might fight themselves while experienced athletes might bring the whole team to the party.

That's at least how I read it.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

"Active negative-- in many exercises. Antagonists are brakes for amateurs; synergists for professionals."

I'm curious to hear any interpretations people may have about this concept.

Agonist and Antagonist Muscles

Here is what occuring...

1) Agonist Muscles

These are the muscle engaged in the movement.

Agonist Bench Press Example

The anterior chain: Anterior Deltoid, Pecs, and Triceps are the Agonist.

2) Antagonist Muscles

These are the counter muscle to that Agonist Muscles.

Antagonist Bench Press Muscles

These the muscle on the opposite side of the Agonist Muscles: Lats, Posterior Deltoid, etc.

Reciprocal Inhibition

What is Reciprocal Inhibition?

Discover how reciprocal inhibition works in the human body, the benefits it offers, and how it can be used in physical therapy. Read now!

brookbushinstitute.com

"Reciprocal inhibition is a neuromuscular reflex that inhibits opposing muscles during movement.

Car Analogy

1) Agonist Muscles

Think of them like your gas pedal on your car.

2) Agonist Muscles

Think of them like your emergency brake on your car.

When performing an Angonist Movement, part of the body protective responses is to have the brake on via the Antagonist Muscles.

In this situation, it amount to driving with your emergency brake on; the Antagonist Muscles decreasing your Power Output.

How To Take The Brake OFF

Two effective method are...

1) Stretching The Antagonistic Muscles

Example: Hanging from a Pull Up Bar, stretching the Posterior Chain.

As we know, if a muscle is stretched too much prior to an Agonist Exercise, force production decreases; a decrease in Maximum Strength and Power.

However, stretching the Antagonist Muscles is effective in prior to an Agonist Movement. Doing so,, increase force output; Maximum Strength and/or Power.

2) Perform an Antagonist Exercise prior to your Agonist Exercise.

Example: Performing Lat Pulldown or Rows.

Both these method allows the Antagonist Muscle to relax; taking the brake off.

This ensures you will produce more force in the Agonist Movement; the Bench Press in this case.

Lower body training is a little different. It has to do with...

Lombard's Paradox

The Agonist and Antagonist Muscles work together at the same time.

Example

In most Squats, the Quad are the dominate Agonist Muscles.

The Hamstrings are the Antagonist Muscle.

However, both the hamstrings and quadriceps contract at the same time in a Squat.

The same is true with a Traditional Deadlift. The posterior chain is the Agonist Group (Hamstrings) with the anterior chain (Quads) being the Antagonist Muscle group.

Both the hamstrings and quadriceps contract at the same time in a Traditional Deadift.

Summary

1) Upper Body Antagonist Muscle to relax is very straight forward.

Stretching or performing an Antagonist Exercise, prior to an Agonist Muscle Exercise increases force production.

2) Lower Body Agonist/Antagonist Muscles are more complicated.

That because both the Agonist/Antagonist Muscle are contracting at the same time.

 

[Bauer]

2) Perform an Antagonist Exercise prior to your Agonist Exercise.

Example: Performing Lat Pulldown or Rows.

Both these method allows the Antagonist Muscle to relax; taking the brake off.

So this would mean that an active negative might promote relaxation of the antagonists on the next positive?

 

[Bauer]

Pavel to the rescue. I searched "Beyond Bodybuilding" for "Antagonist" and look what I've found:

There are two ways you can descend into the low position of the squat or any other exercise. Passively, by yielding to gravity. Which is what most people who have no poundages to brag about do. Or actively, by pulling yourself down against the resistance of your own muscles. Which is what strong people – whose barbells bend under the burden of many wheels – do, consciously or not. An active negative does three things. First, it loads elastic energy into your muscles and tendons, for a more powerful return. Second, it amplifies your strength through the Law of Successive Induction. This law states that a muscle will be stronger immediately after its antagonist’s contraction. And third, it dramatically increases your control of the iron and therefore cuts your odds of injuries. Imagine two opposing pulleys controlling a crane, rather than one.

This does not answer the amateur-part, though. But from experience we will use too much tension for all new skills. Imagine a newbie ice skater for example and their rigid movements.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I am able to load the spring (the stretch reflex), and explode out of the hole. Presses, squats, even deadliest and swings as well.

Stretch Reflex

Training the Stretch Reflex definitely increases explosiveness.

increasing explosive power is also achieved with...

1) Decreasing Reciprocal Inhibition by performing an Antagonist Exercise or Stretching the Antagonist Muscle prior to the Agonist Movement.

2) Post Activation Potentiation Training, PAP

Performing a fairly heavy movement that with the same exercise (Contrast Training) or performing a fairly exercise that is similar in nature (Complex Training) to the Power Exercise that you are going to perform.

Accommodating Resistance Training (attaching Band and/or Chain) to an Ascending Strength Curve Exercise (Squat, Press Movement, Deadlift, etc) also elicits the PAP effecdt.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

So this would mean that an active negative might promote relaxation of the antagonists on the next positive?

An Eccentric Antagonist Movement

Yes, this would relax the Antagonist Muscle; allowing more force production in the Agonist Movement.

Isometric Antagonist Action

Performing an Isometric Antagonist Action prior to the Agonist Movement would work, as well.

Bench Press

Ironically, many individuals perform an Isometric Antagonist Movement just prior their Bench Press. They don't realize they are doing it.

Some Bench Pressers, will sit on the bench, grab the bottom part of the bench and perform a Isometric Lat Row.

Other Bench Pressers often, grab the bar and perform an Isometric Row or pull themselves up slightly to the bar, just before their Bench Press.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

...less experienced lifters are fighting with the weight as experienced lifters are pulling/Embracing the weight

I am not sure what this means.

Dr Tom McLaughlin's Bench Press Research

Let's use the a 1 Repetition Max Bench Press as an example.

1) Novice Lifters, Less Experience

Research determined this group allowed the bar to drop too quickly in the Bench Press. The Novice Lifters weren't riding the brakes and fighting decrease the Eccentric Bar Speed.

The end result was that the bar speed magnified the bar weight 149%.

That mean in attempting a 300 lb Bench Press. hey need produce 447 lbs to drive the weight off their chest.

2) Elite Lifters, Experience Lifters

Elite lifter rode the brake during the Eccentric Bar Speed.

The end result was that the bar speed magnified the bar weight 112%.

That mean in attempting a 300 lb Bench Press. hey need produce 336 lbs to drive the weight off their chest.

The Elite Lifter weren't pulling the weight down, unless they were using a Bench Press Shirt rather than benching in a T-Shirt.

When To Allow An Increase in Eccentric Bar Speed

in performing a heavy Bench Press, the key to eliciting the Stretch Reflex, in a "Touch and Go", involves timing.

When the bar is a couple of inches off the chest, allow the bar speed to increase; take your foot of the brakes, just a little.

This ensures enough Eccentric Fore is produce to elicit the Stretch Reflex, allowing you to sling shot the weight off the chest.

The Squat

This information applies to the Squat, as well.

 

[Anna C]

Good thoughts. Thank you @John sardos @william bad butt @Bauer @natewhite39 @kennycro@@aol.com.

Thinking about all that, and the context, I think I understand it now, and it's actually pretty simple.

Example, normal negative or active negative using antagonist:

• Flex the arm. Biceps are contracted.
• Straighten the arm. Triceps are contacting (antagonist) and biceps are relaxed. The "brakes" for the arm straightening are the triceps.

Example, active negative using synergist:

• Flex the arm again. Biceps are contracted.
• Straighten the arm again, this time keeping the biceps flexed in an eccentric contraction. The "brakes" for the arm straightening are now the biceps (synergist).

So this is what we would do to use feed forward tension in the active negative.

• In a pull-up, really use the pulling muscles while lowering. Make the biceps and lats act as the brakes.
• In a hanging leg raise, really flex the abs in while lowering the legs. Make the abs act as the brakes.
• In a squat, use the hamstrings, glutes, and quads to lower down, acting as brakes in active resistance.

By using the synergists for brakes, we give them better training, and we have better control over the movement.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Example, normal negative or active negative using antagonist:

• Flex the arm. Biceps are contracted.
• Straighten the arm. Triceps are contacting (antagonist) and biceps are relaxed. The "brakes" for the arm straightening are the triceps.

Reciprocal Inhibition

I am not quite clear on what you have stated. With that said, let's look at your example in regard to eliminating or decreasing Reciprocal Inhibition as a means of increasing Maximum Strength and Power in the working Agonist Muscles.

Flexing The Biceps

If you flex the biceps first and then follow it with a triceps movement, you are able to generate more fore with the triceps.

The "brakes" for straightening the triceps is the biceps.

Here one brief write up on

If you stretch your pecs when you train your lats you'll manage more reps

Strength athletes will get more reps out of their sets if they stretch their muscles between sets. And we're not talking about the muscles you're training, but their antagonists. So when you're training the latissimi dorsi you need to stretch the pectoralis major. Sports scientists at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro write about it in Research in Sports Medicine.


Results
Via electrodes that they had attached to the subjects' muscles, the Brazilians could see that passive stretching of the pecs increased the electrical activity in the lats and the biceps during the sets. So the muscles were working harder. The stretching had no effect on the electrical activity in the pecs themselves.

The effect of stretching is obvious, and indeed, the subjects completed significantly more reps as a result.

The Brazilians don't know how stretching the pecs strengthens the lats.

Conclusion

"The antagonist stretching applied during the inter-set rest period showed greater repetition performance and agonist muscle activation in the seated row exercise compared with a passive rest period between the three sets", the researchers concluded.

"These results indicated an interesting alternative for coaches and practitioners during resistance training prescription aiming to enhance strength performance and muscle activation in an acute manner."

Source:
Res Sports Med. 2015;23(1):37-50.

 

[Anna C]

Strength athletes will get more reps out of their sets if they stretch their muscles between sets. And we're not talking about the muscles you're training, but their antagonists. So when you're training the latissimi dorsi you need to stretch the pectoralis major.

That's an interesting concept! I don't think it's in conflict with the concept of using the synergists as brakes during the active negative. Both could be used in a session, actually.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

That's an interesting concept! I don't think it's in conflict with the concept of using the synergists as brakes during the active negative. Both could be used in a session, actually.

"Antagonists are brakes for amateurs; synergists for professionals."

This is a vague term with no meaning.

There must have been some information that was presented on it that would define what it was meant?

Do you have that information?

 

[North Coast Miller]

Reciprocal Inhibition

I am not quite clear on what you have stated. With that said, let's look at your example in regard to eliminating or decreasing Reciprocal Inhibition as a means of increasing Maximum Strength and Power in the working Agonist Muscles.

Flexing The Biceps

If you flex the biceps first and then follow it with a triceps movement, you are able to generate more fore with the triceps.

The "brakes" for straightening the triceps is the biceps.

Here one brief write up on

If you stretch your pecs when you train your lats you'll manage more reps

Strength athletes will get more reps out of their sets if they stretch their muscles between sets. And we're not talking about the muscles you're training, but their antagonists. So when you're training the latissimi dorsi you need to stretch the pectoralis major. Sports scientists at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro write about it in Research in Sports Medicine.


Results
Via electrodes that they had attached to the subjects' muscles, the Brazilians could see that passive stretching of the pecs increased the electrical activity in the lats and the biceps during the sets. So the muscles were working harder. The stretching had no effect on the electrical activity in the pecs themselves.

The effect of stretching is obvious, and indeed, the subjects completed significantly more reps as a result.

The Brazilians don't know how stretching the pecs strengthens the lats.

Conclusion

"The antagonist stretching applied during the inter-set rest period showed greater repetition performance and agonist muscle activation in the seated row exercise compared with a passive rest period between the three sets", the researchers concluded.

"These results indicated an interesting alternative for coaches and practitioners during resistance training prescription aiming to enhance strength performance and muscle activation in an acute manner."

Source:
Res Sports Med. 2015;23(1):37-50.

I wonder if it has more to do with shortening the agonist muscles during the act of lengthening the antagonist, maybe squeezing metabolites out of the tissue?

Overall I'd say it only matters for specific exercises where the antagonist performs a stabilizing role, and even then it will only be in part of the ROM.

From a visualization role it is very handy to use an "active" negative to promote full ROM and solid control of the load path, tho I don't think a lot of motor activation is actually happening.

 

[Anna C]

From a visualization role it is very handy to use an "active" negative to promote full ROM and solid control of the load path, tho I don't think a lot of motor activation is actually happening.

Well, it depends on the load and the tempo. Think tempo squats, for instance. If I put a barbell on my back with 200 lbs loaded on it, I'm moving 200 lbs plus some portion of my bodyweight in the concentric contraction when I stand up from the bottom of the squat. But what about the lowering phase? If I fall down into the bottom of the squat with no resistance (a really bad idea), you're correct that there's not a lot of motor activation actually happening. But if I lower down in a 5-second negative, and stand up with a 5-second positive, there is probably a LOT of motor activation in the negative in addition to the positive. Probably a similar amount of motor activation whether going up or down. I'm sure that's been studied somewhere, but generally speaking, you can feel this. Same thing for a very slow push-up.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Well, it depends on the load and the tempo. Think tempo squats, for instance. If I put a barbell on my back with 200 lbs loaded on it, I'm moving 200 lbs plus some portion of my bodyweight in the concentric contraction when I stand up from the bottom of the squat. But what about the lowering phase? If I fall down into the bottom of the squat with no resistance (a really bad idea), you're correct that there's not a lot of motor activation actually happening. But if I lower down in a 5-second negative, and stand up with a 5-second positive, there is probably a LOT of motor activation in the negative in addition to the positive. Probably a similar amount of motor activation whether going up or down. I'm sure that's been studied somewhere, but generally speaking, you can feel this. Same thing for a very slow push-up.

I should have been more clear, I meant antagonist motor units. When doing ATG squats I do need to "pull" into the bottom, but I doubt there is much flexor activation to make it happen.

With something like a 1A OHP, activation of the lats is only to keep the load in the desired path, even tho it feels like pulling down.

You need a small amount of antagonist activation just to maintain form and controlled tension, definitely not a "more is better" phenomena.

 

[Bauer]

That's an interesting concept! I don't think it's in conflict with the concept of using the synergists as brakes during the active negative. Both could be used in a session, actually.

A bit like doing your SF Hip Bridges before your swings

I actually like marching between sets of swings, which also activates and stretches the hip flexors and quads dynamically. Dan John and Tim Anderson recommend this, too. This is probably similar in concept.