acupuncture

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kris

Level 3 Valued Member
@ Nick Domich + 1 from a SF " sister " in Strenght, firm believer in Pavel Hardstyle kellebells techniques and in the open minded community, part or not of the SF team, linked worldwide throught this forum.
 

Zach Ganska

Level 3 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
(whatever your real name is)

Well, this was all forsaken because something better, something scientific was developed and is developing. The West has addressed many problems. Diarrhea is a major killer around the world, but not in the developed countries. Why? Modern medicine. Deadly and crippling childhood diseases are all but eradicated in developed countries. Why? Modern medicine and a scientific and testable view of disease. Acupuncture is cheaper than surgery. Why? Because surgery is eminently more useful.

This is completely inaccurate, those examples you gave are the result of advancements in sanitation, not the western medical approach.  We haven't CURED anything in decades, and thank God Jonas Salk wasn't a capitalist!  The US spends a higher amount of GDP on health care, therefore it's obvious we reap the most benefits from all these "advancements."

Yet our health is horrible compared to other countries that spend far less.  What does "health care" spending represent?  Sick and dying people.  Most Americans now die from either cancer or cardiovascular disease. We consume drugs and hospital based treatments to prevent diseases arising from lifestyle choices.  Here's a graph of said expenditure:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joonyun/2012/10/18/health-and-wealth/

(note the spike from 2000-2008)

US death rates:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm

Here's obesity during that time: (fun little presentation at the bottom of the page)

http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html

And here's cardiovascular disease:

http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

Now if I have a traumatic injury I pray and hope I get to the nearest hospital ASAP, western medicine is unmatched for trauma care.  For daily living however, and actually thriving and maximizing health over merely remaining in existence?  Western medicine chases symptoms and fails more often than not to find the root cause of a dis-ease state of being.

You criticize those of us who explore other systems of thought and practice to eliminate problems arising from a culture that teaches us to be sick (sick people consume more, whether afflicted mentally, emotionally, physically and especially spiritually as we're raised to consume above all else) while those who use "advanced" medical treatment remain in disease states continuing to consume drugs and therapies that are ineffective amidst a country whose health deteriorates exponentially by the year?  I'd review your religious practices as contempt prior to investigation is a malady to be rectified.

I'll make the same offer to you as Samuel, I will send my medical records from when I fully used your sacred western medical treatments (from a highly qualified internal medicine specialist) to now where I use modalities you mock for being unscientific as it's resulted in a reversal of obesity, high blood pressure, and more than one addiction, as well as continual advancement in other dimensions of my health.  My methodology for eating which has alleviated gastrointestinal issues I've had for decades and increased my health in all ways was founded on the observations of "uncivilized" peoples, not in a laboratory.  If I were to see a nutritionist whose methodology is based on the usage of all this incredible technology I would be expected to have clogged arteries and not long to live.

Also, people are free to do whatever they want, but I think there is an expectation that people do not disparage others for failing to hold the same beliefs.

This statement I found extremely ironic given that this is your MO.  You choose to post amongst a community that enjoys using kettelebells (I'm going to be outlandish here and suggest that enjoyment leads to immersing oneself fully in one's practice and thus delivers a far greater overall return for one's time throughout a lifetime), continually attacking many individuals intelligence and integrity for not holding the same beliefs as you, insinuating that those in positions of authority aren't committed to helping others as much as marketing their system.

You choose to post continual criticisms not using your name, yet where is your superior training system?  Please divulge! I'll buy it and start doing it tomorrow as I love results over everything else, the faster the better!  I'm sure this would be far more rewarding for you than focusing your energy on criticizing those of us with a different perspective.

I'll close by saying I admire your dedication to your personal practices, and after reading the recent discussion thread that resulted from the "rich vs. poor" topic I can say we hold the exact same view on societal stratification and the functioning of this current mode of "society."  I fail to see though why you spend so much of your choosing to communicate in an environment you don't agree with.
 

23rdwave

Level 5 Valued Member
Herr,

None of the martial arts teachers I have been fortunate to study with were in it for the money. My aikido sensei was a general contractor, my judo sensei a scientist and my t'ai chi sifu an architect. Grandmaster Henry Look (http://www.kungfuchampionship.com/sanfrancisco/HenryLook.html & http://www.hsing-i.com/hsing-i_journal/look.html) is a UC Berkeley alum and architect of 26 Benihana restaurants as well as Japanese restaurants in New York and Los Angeles. I have presented his martial arts credentials and his story in his own words in the two links above. I suggest you follow his sage advice and focus on the five highest levels of personal achievement in life: Honor, Respect, Integrity, Loyalty and Humility.

 
 

Samuel

Level 2 Valued Member
As the majority of the participants in this thread reach a new low of failing at basic critical thinking and the principles of evidence, I was literally dumbstruck, completely lost for words, as to how to proceed, when a particular quote rose to mind which aptly sums up the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk7jHJRSzhM
There is a different context here, but that middle part is rather pertinent: "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you gonna provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?"

It seems as though this was all coming to a close for the most part anyway, but regardless, I am done. As he says in the video, the conversation is over - indeed, it was essentially over before it began. It's your money, you can waste it all you'd like. Clearly Rick (the OP) was after validation more than a critical assessment or evidence, and evidently logic and science have failed to save him that waste, and there's certainly no convincing the rest of you. I hope there has been at least one reader who paid attention to reason and some positive has come out of the efforts of myself, Herr, and a few others - but at this point there's clearly nothing more that can be said or done.
 

Matt

Level 3 Valued Member
Just some points from the last few posts - If someone doesn't value evidence... there is evidence acupuncture works.  So then you would have to redefine evidence and then it becomes subjective.

If someone doesn't value logic .... what is the logic behind quantum mechanics.  A theory which at its core has (at the current level of understanding, which has been rigorously proven therefore there is evidence) - the concept that the property of an object can be undefined until measurement.  Loosely speaking.  So interesting - evidence without logic.  ??

The Qi videos also show some objective evidence - the object breaking, throwing needles, finger stands etc. all don't require an as-might-be-claimed co-actor .  Unless they are rigging everything.  So again, evidence exists, but is made subjective and redefined to suit an argument.

Anyway - this could get quite philosophical, metaphysical.  An innocent question meltdown.  Ha.
 

Samuel

Level 2 Valued Member
I will simply add that quantum mechanics doesn't violate logic - it just violates our common conception of what should be logical. As quantum mechanics is demonstrable through mathematics, it obviously cannot violate logic - maths is logic. I would speculate though that this conflict between the way we think things reasonably should or shouldn't be and the way it turns out they are is probably why quantum mechanics and similar fields are so difficult for people to grasp conceptually - myself included. But the logic behind it is there; it's just very, very, very complicated.
 

postnspread

Level 2 Valued Member
Someone's written in this thread that qi and God are neither proven nor unproven. This brings up an issue at the heart of strength training: can a technique or protocol be proven to work? What notion and level of proof is acceptable?

The problem with qi and God is that they are such vague concepts that the scientific method, presently our most reliable method of proof, cannot be applied to them. There is a currently fashionable notion, originating in certain literary-philosophical circles, that all ways of "knowing" (and "proving") are essentially just social choices and hence it's not very nice to privilege one over the other! This weakening of the idea of "proof" is appealing in a no-idiot-left-behind kind of way but is dangerous and  regressive.

I really doubt if any of those who regard qi or God as established would apply the same standards of proof to their financial transactions!
 

Matt

Level 3 Valued Member
The "maths is logic" is getting into Gödel discussions.  Axioms important to clarify.

The maths of QMech (for this interesting stuff) is probability, and statistical.

It is interesting to question whether quantum mechanics violates logic.  I would agree and disagree with your post Samuel.  Yet this is a detour from acupuncture.  Sorry.
 

23rdwave

Level 5 Valued Member
Qi is just the mind and the breath. The mind is a very powerful machine and it can do amazing things. If one would just close one's eyes or stare at a far point in the distance while either standing or sitting and just turned their mind off as well as possible or focused on the inhale and exhale of their breath for 20-60 minutes in the morning and evening that person would learn many things about the power of their mind and breath. It would improve their lives immeasurably.

There is a daoist meditation called the inner smile. Smile slightly and relax your face. Then smile down to your throat, each organ individually, the complete digestive tract and then every lumbar of the spinal column. Put your mind in all these places. Get to know them. Each morning and evening smile to your whole self. Be good to yourself. You have to put that double bodyweight snatch down sometime. And despite what Samuel says it won't cost you anything. All that money I have wasted on martial arts lessons ($50 a month is killing me) I will never get back when I could have done something more productive with my time.
 

Andrew Palmer

Level 3 Valued Member
postnspread, you misunderstood my post, when I mentioned about something that is not proven or unproved, I meant that when an argument is based on research and studies, that one has to take the results with a grain of salt and not rely on them wholeheartedly to formulate understanding. With research you do need to ask who funded it, what their motivation is, and to what audience it is directed at, and the quality of the research conducted. A million people can be wrong, but then again, probably they're not. If I can't prove something to be correct or incorrect, then there is always that element of doubt, and I'm therefore left to say I'm not sure.

In regards to strength training, I know it works or doesn't work by using it, and evaluating it.
 

postnspread

Level 2 Valued Member
Andrew, one has to distinguish between idea of rigorous proof and its use or misuse in particular instances. I agree entirely about taking any research results with a grain of salt. In fact, “proof” in a scientific sense is always understood to be provisional pending greater insight and more accurate measurement. But at least disproof can be more convincing, e.g. disproving that a yogi can levitate or that someone can deadlift 900!

“The wisdom of crowds” often seems to be a good bet in some situations approximately governed by statistical mechanics and the law of large numbers but not in others as Jim Surowiecki’s book of the same title shows. What would one say to the widespread belief in astrology or homeopathy? But in the present context of certain traditional cures, rather than admit something’s not working, people might be inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the treatment. Sort of wishful thinking+cultural inertia+group loyalty+fear of speaking out.

Some of us seem not to have moved very much forward from the situation deplored by the physicist Robert Hooke (1635 – 1703): “The truth is, the Science of Nature has been already too long made only a work of the Brain and the Fancy: It is now high time that it should return to the plainness and soundness of Observations on material and obvious things.”

In straightforward issues of training, evaluation is easy but not in others. Hence the unending debates about e.g. safety, effectiveness, plateau-busting etc.
 

kris

Level 3 Valued Member
Dear HerrMannelig, you are so wrong, Pavel is not a smart person who knows a lot about training and running a business. Pavel is a genius athlete who introduce the kettlebells and the Hardstyle technique worldwide, he is running courses, workshops and certifications. Certainly not a business.

In matter of sciences :  " the scientific ethos is based on 3 key principles : follow the evidence wherever it leads; if one has a theory, one needs to be willing to try to prove it wrong as much as one try to prove that it is right; the ultimate arbiter of truth is experiment, not the comfort one derives from one's a priori beliefs, nor the beauty or elegance one ascribes to one's theorical models. " A universe of nothing. Laurence M. Krauss.

Did you experiment acupuncture ?

 
 

Zach Ganska

Level 3 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I will simply add that quantum mechanics doesn’t violate logic – it just violates our common conception of what should be logical.

Interesting. I’m surprised you’d take this stance on a theoretical field. So if something can’t fully be explained and measured yet then it can possibly exist, such as dark matter which comprises approximately 96% of the universe according to quantum physicists. There are countless phenomena which physicists have yet to explain, yet they are not dismissed as unscientific.

Related to Qi, prana, or any other name that hundreds of cultures have used to describe the same concept comes the emerging field of Biophotonics, originally began I believe by Fritz-Albert Popp a little over thirty years ago. Popp and other physicists have developed machines to capture light (a form of energy) emitted from all living things (may the force be with you).

Biophotons, or ultraweak photon emissions of biological systems, are weak electromagnetic waves in the optical range of the spectrum – in other words: light. All living cells of plants, animals and human beings emit biophotons which cannot be seen by the naked eye but can be measured by special equipment developed by German researchers.
“We know today that man, essentially, is a being of light. And the modern science of photobiology is presently proving this. In terms of healing the implications are immense. We now know, for example, that quanta of light can initiate, or arrest, cascade-like reactions in the cells, and that genetic cellular damage can be virtually repaired, within hours, by faint beams of light.

We are still on the threshold of fully understanding the complex relationship between light and life, but we can now say emphatically, that the function of our entire
metabolism is dependent on light.”

………..Dr. Fritz Albert Popp
 
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