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Bodyweight Adapting AGT to climbing plyometrics

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strongDad

strongDad

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Hi Guys,

I would like to create an AGT program for some sport climbing sport specific exercises. Can y'all help me work out a program?

In basketball players do box-jumps to train vertical leap. Climbers do an equivalent exercise called campus boarding. It's basically a dynamic explosive pull-up where you "jump" from one tiny wooden rail, to another. (The "jumping" is just from the pull-up motion and some limited kipping—no feet). There are various ways to increase or decrease the intensity from jumping down with both hands and catching yourself (max intensity) to just shooting one arm up and latching a high hold without letting go (medium intensity). Like in this picture:

CR2_logo_comp.jpg

Most climbing training programs break up training into 4 blocks of ~4 weeks. These blocks are base aerobic fitness, finger strength, finger power, glycolytic peaking. After those steps you're in peak shape for your climbing trip. However they don't get so specific into how best to train power other than do campus boarding and don't get hurt.

Do you think I could adapt the Q&D program for this? Like: 20-30s all-out campusing, then 3min rest?
(By the time I'm ready for this, I think I'll have finished S+S).
 
@strongDad , a couple questions...
  1. What are you currently able to climb (YDS and/or V scale)?
  2. Do you have a trip coming up?
  3. What's your rough weight?
Derek has been doing a lot more climbing than I have lately (I've been doing more BJJ), and he's definitely currently a stronger climber. So I'll let him reply with a more detailed answer and, probably, more tailored to your specific question.

But, generally, just snatching and route climbing is my typical training strategy. I'm no Alex Honnold, but my grip strength is solid enough for most climbs that I want to do.

For reference, I'm 175-180 lbs and feel comfortable enough getting on a 5.10+/5.11- indoor top rope (last week, which was my 2nd time climbing in roughly 2 months) or an easy 5.10 lead. Outdoor, a 5.10 isn't out of the question. And I will also trad lead (5.8 or 5.9).

Anyway, my point is that, unless you're really trying to push the envelope, just snatch (Q&D) and climb a lot... and boulder for something different.

If you are trying to push the envelope, Derek will have more for you. :)
 
@strongDad ...
I've probably babbled on about this before, but I really don't think that campus boarding has a very attractive risk / reward ratio. Maybe if a climber is cranking at very elite levels, but unless a person is way up in the rarefied air of 5.14 and up, I think that there are way better ways to get better. I know some pretty solid climbers that don't campus. People leading .13's trad. My son is pretty competent up to V9 + ... no campusing.

I've seen my fair share of people with tendon pulley damage that takes forever to heal (if it ever does completely)

And if you crack climb you don't really need android finger strength anyway... just a high pain tolerance :cool:

(However Sonnie Trotter did tell me that as far as training strength goes... "it's all in the fingers")

Maybe off topic but... I also think that if a person is a competent 5.11 trad leader that they will never run out of quality climbs to do...
 
Thanks for thinking about this guys.

Ryan Toshner said:
  1. What are you currently able to climb (YDS and/or V scale)?
  2. Do you have a trip coming up?
  3. What's your rough weight?
Click to expand...

1. Not sure. A few years ago (~3) when I was climbing all the time I was projecting 5.12c sport and 5.12a trad. I sometimes onsighted V6. Since then had a second major knee surgery and a kid (who is now 2.5 year old). Now I'm time poor and since I haven't been on an outdoor trip in a while I don't know exactly. I'm able to do 12b in the gym after 4-5 goes.
2. Late July 2020, we're going bouldering for a week!
3. 160 lbs @ ~18% BF

offwidth said:
I know some pretty solid climbers that don't campus. People leading .13's trad. My son is pretty competent up to V9 + ... no campusing.
Click to expand...

That's food for thought. I saw a big jump in my ability after a training cycle with campusing, but it was my first time ever doing organized training so it could have been any part of it. Basically I had been stuck at 5.12a for years then did one training cycle with rock climbing training manual, and starting sending harder. I've been playing around with snatches lately, and I have to say that 1-3-5 on a campus board seems more relevent to dynoing off credit card crimps. :) But then... I sure as heck can't climb V9.
 
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I would recommend you look at the parameters Pavel was striving to stick to the myokinase. He was aiming for a max effort in a more or less full body move (snatch) or a pull and a push (swing and pushup) for an estimated time of movement of 5 to 15 Seconds. Both "exercises" have detailed protocols, so you could try to mimic that by using a scalable wall. In the boulderhall I go, we have one. You could also try to use the Victor Protocol. The question would be, if you really need to be that sport specific or if it would be possible to "supplement" climbing with Q&D.

FYI: I am climbing just "avec plaisir" no were near the your level, to be honest. Just sharing some ideas.
 
strongDad said:
@offwidth what would you replace campusing with? Snatches and clapping pull-ups?
Click to expand...
I think that snatches are probably going to be beneficial in supporting most physical activities.

I guess I'm a bit of a loss as to what to replace campusing with. In my worldview of climbing (which is predominantly moderate trad and Alpine) there really isn't any need for the kind of strength it develops. Finger strength for sure, but I can get all that I need and more from Fingerboard Drills (which I know you do), Frenchies (on a campus board of all things!), good old fashioned 'just climbing', and strongman grip activities. I rarely get on terrain where I need radical crimps, mono's, and certainly never dynos. (Okay... the gym is the odd exception...)

I don't climb at the level you do, but outside of the gym, I've never had to dyno on a real climb in over 45 years...

Plyometrics just don't enter into any equation I use, unless it's box jumps.

If you have a real need for campusing; like you are off to on-sight Action Direct :cool: then...(you know the drill) warm up thoroughly, and maybe limit it to one session per week.
 
@offwidth I see where you're coming from. Except for 45 years without a dyno?! That said, I started trying to think up trad dynos and came up pretty short
* Astroman's dyno to a chickenwing (according to folklore) and
* Bearded Cabbage, Joshua Tree
* King swing (kinda sorta!)

I think with a good warmup and doing open handed campus ladders and "go-agains/bumps" only 1/wk as the only finger training in the cycle should be okay. At least it worked for me once. :) The main pro argument I see for campusing is that I will actually preform that motion outdoors in an uncontrolled environement, so why not train it in a controlled way? I guess the key would be focusing on the absolute miniumum effective dose. There is a similar (unpopular) argument for training full thumb wrap crimps on the hangboard.

Felix Hotz said:
I would recommend you look at the parameters Pavel was striving to stick to the myokinase. He was aiming for a max effort in a more or less full body move (snatch) or a pull and a push (swing and pushup) for an estimated time of movement of 5 to 15 Seconds.
Click to expand...

Re. myokinase. I guess I'll have to see how long a individual "set" of campusing takes. For example, can you really go all out for 5-15 seconds? Campusing actually isn't that continuous. I suppose there is going to be a trade off in terms of velocity and power. Like you could do ladders (1-2-3) or matching ladders (1-1-2-2) as fast as possible moving quickly upwards with small motions and high wattage. This might last 10 seconds. Alternatively you could span lager gaps as in 1-3-5 and generate far more power but it might not even last 5 seconds.
 
strongDad said:
@offwidth I see where you're coming from. Except for 45 years without a dyno?! That said, I started trying to think up trad dynos and came up pretty short
* Astroman's dyno to a chickenwing (according to folklore) and
* Bearded Cabbage, Joshua Tree
* King swing (kinda sorta!)

I think with a good warmup and doing open handed campus ladders and "go-agains/bumps" only 1/wk as the only finger training in the cycle should be okay. At least it worked for me once. :) The main pro argument I see for campusing is that I will actually preform that motion outdoors in an uncontrolled environement, so why not train it in a controlled way? I guess the key would be focusing on the absolute miniumum effective dose. There is a similar (unpopular) argument for training full thumb wrap crimps on the hangboard.

Re. myokinase. I guess I'll have to see how long a individual "set" of campusing takes. For example, can you really go all out for 5-15 seconds? Campusing actually isn't that continuous. I suppose there is going to be a trade off in terms of velocity and power. Like you could do ladders (1-2-3) or matching ladders (1-1-2-2) as fast as possible moving quickly upwards with small motions and high wattage. This might last 10 seconds. Alternatively you could span lager gaps as in 1-3-5 and generate far more power but it might not even last 5 seconds.
Click to expand...
I bet ya dollars to doughnuts Pete Croft never dynoed on Astroman...

I see your parallel to training thumb wrap crimps however.

Think I'll go and work on my crack skills...
 
offwidth said:
Pete Croft never dynoed on Astroman...
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't think he did either. :)

Well my current plan is to suss out mimicking Q&D timing with campusing when that part of the training cycle comes up. Since I don't make it to the gym that often I will need some contingencies and substitutions. Current ideas are
1. Suspend a handboard from the pullup bar at the park and dyno from the hanboard to the bar
2. Clapping pull-ups
3. Snatch
4. Build a portable campus board rig like the Andreson bro did in Afghanistan.

I'm curious what @Ryan Toshner & @Derek Toshner have to say too. :)
 
I'd vote for snatches and clapping pull-ups (occasionally). I've done the latter before, and they're kind of fun. Far easier on the fingers too, although they still get worked.

I've also heard Pavel say that if you want to work on your grip, just soap up the handle of a big kettlebell and do 1-hand swings with it. Just don't do it inside on the carpet. Unless you want to be replacing your carpet, that is.
 
I’ve found amazing benefits from doing Q&D style climbing with:
Day 1) very short, intense bouldering moves with long rests
Day 2) long, slow, easy stuff

examples:
Day 1) piece together a tough boulder project 1 move at a time, taking 4x the rest than it takes to move (usually 10-sec or less in movement and 40-sec of rest). Repeat this until you get to about 4 rounds, then take a longer break (plan 044-ish). I will do 1 round of the first half of the Boulder problem, a long rest, one round of the second half, long rest, then 1 attempt at completion from start to finish.
Day 2) 1500’ to 3000’ of climbing mostly easy “below the threshold” climbs. If you’re feeling the burn, you’ve gone too hard. Just get on the wall and have a nice climb. I prefer to lead on this day to at least make it somewhat interesting.

this paired with snatches on days I can’t climb, and a regimen of face-the-wall hack squats, pistols, suspension trainer hamstring curls, and archer or climber push-ups have significantly improved my climbing abilities.

I have gotten injured from too much finger board work.
 
Derek Toshner said:
I’ve found amazing benefits from doing Q&D style climbing with:
Day 1) very short, intense bouldering moves with long rests
Day 2) long, slow, easy stuff

examples:
Day 1) piece together a tough boulder project 1 move at a time, taking 4x the rest than it takes to move (usually 10-sec or less in movement and 40-sec of rest). Repeat this until you get to about 4 rounds, then take a longer break (plan 044-ish). I will do 1 round of the first half of the Boulder problem, a long rest, one round of the second half, long rest, then 1 attempt at completion from start to finish.
Day 2) 1500’ to 3000’ of climbing mostly easy “below the threshold” climbs. If you’re feeling the burn, you’ve gone too hard. Just get on the wall and have a nice climb. I prefer to lead on this day to at least make it somewhat interesting.

this paired with snatches on days I can’t climb, and a regimen of face-the-wall hack squats, pistols, suspension trainer hamstring curls, and archer or climber push-ups have significantly improved my climbing abilities.

I have gotten injured from too much finger board work.
Click to expand...
3,000' is a pretty decent day by any standard. Not too many places can one do that...
Good stuff!
 
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