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Kettlebell Advice required on S&S with Triathlon Training

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TriGuy

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Hi All

I have just started with S&S. I'm first and foremost a triathlete, but really keen to get stronger to help me hold my form towards the end of longer (half ironman) races.

I think S&S is ideal mainly because it is so uncomplicated, and by all accounts pretty effective.

My question is: Where in the day in relation to my other training I should slot it in to get the most out of it. I usually train the 3 sports in 12 sessions spread over 7 days - that doesn't leave a ton of time, and it means for the most part S&S will fit in before or after a swim/bike/run session.

Until now I've tended to hit the KBs as soon as I get home giving me an hour or two before I head to the pool or hop on the bike trainer.

But not sure if I'm helping or hampering my efforts. Is there any general advice around the timing of this? Should I for example rather be doing S&S after my other workouts? Or does it not really matter and I can just get on with it.

Many thanks
TG
 
S&S before swim/bike/run. You may want to do it in the morning so you have all the energy you will need in the pool/on the road/on the trail.
 
I'd wait to hear Pavel's opinion on this.

I've trained with Triathletes and dabbled in triathlon a bit myself at one stage.

The way I see S&S is that it is an all round fitness program, it's designed to gradually increase strength and V02 max at the same time in one easy to follow program. It's not really designed as an adjunct for an ultra endurance athlete.

When you start doing Triathlon, particularly the half Ironman you have as a goal, you are getting into the realms of ultra distance events. To start adding too much extra to a 12 session a week training program is going to require some intelligent management. I'd suggest to add S&S training you'd have to drop some of those sessions from that 12 times a week program.

My gut feeling would be to use S&S as an off season/ pre season routine and then move on to more roadwork/trackwork and poolwork before tapering for the event.

The S&S swing program (with a heart rate monitor) would extrapolate very well to interval training on a bike or for the run as a replacement for your ride/run training. There's some cutting edge research behind it and following that type of routine be an excellent way to train for the ride or run several times each week.

Over gearing (pushing a big gear is a tried and tested way to build functional strength specific to cycling) and that would substitute well for the S&S progression standards.

Not many athletes waste their time with unproductive (useless) track miles these days, so it could be a good template for steady improvement in that respect. It's a bit harder in the pool, but it would still work.
 
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Some options:

Light swings as a warmup, e.g., if your S&S weight is 24 kg, do a few sets of 10 with 16 kg. Do getups on off days, if there are any, or before easy endurance days, e.g., a day that features only a recovery run, bike, or swim.

JMO. I used to like light swings before a bike ride.

-S-
 
Tarzan might be right, this could be too much.

However, depending on what point in your season your at, or how far you are from any big upcoming races, I would be intrigued to try some S and S.

I'm not a triathlete, but I do run and bike with some regularity, and I've used many different programs with those activities over the years. As 23rd mentioned, and I've heard Pavel say the same, do your strength work before your swim/bike/run if you will be combining them close together. Ideally the tri work that follows the strength work would not be hard intervals but rather an easy day or a skills based day. I have also heard Pavel say to split them up in the day. So do S and S either in the morning or evening, and put your tri workout at the other end. In this fashion, I don't believe it matters as much which one you do first, but I could easily be wrong.

Now, if it were me, I would try to work S and S in with a few caveats. 1) Keep it light. A lot of us on the boards (myself included) have found ourselves pushing a bit hard on the program. That could be going too fast in a session or adding too much weight too soon. Keep yours light and easy. It sounds like your a triathlete first, so think of S and S as a bonus session that will give your hips some extra stretch and power and your shoulders some extra stability. 2) Don't do many sessions in a week. I would shoot for 2.

And Steve, you wrote while I was commenting. It's awesome the forum lets you view that. I like your idea of splitting things up. Maybe a little like the old PM from ETK?
 
I'm the odd man on this one - I see the benefit of this forum as promoting a StrongFirst attitude. One thing TriGuy mentioned is the desire to get stronger - I don't believe light swings and light getups will benefit him, he does enough light stuff in his Tri-training, I believe he needs to use S&S as it was designed ... to build strength. Do your KB before your tri sessions, with plenty of time between, as you are currently doing. Focus on using as much weight as possible while maintaining proper form. We are not talking squats and deadlifts here, S&S with a good, solid, heavy weight will not overtax your system ... it is a recharge. If you find that the addition of S&S has you feeling overtrained, then back off on your numbers a bit, not the weight, but the sets, do 3 sets per side instead of 5, and take your time between sets - your strength training should be slow and methodical, strength is built slowly over time using consistent stress and lots of rest. Keep on track with the S&S program, it is designed to be an almost daily training program to build strength while leaving enough in the tank to perform your other tasks throughout the day. What you should find is that by training with S&S for strength you are feeling greater stability and balance, which will translate into more efficient use of your body while running, swimming and biking, more efficiency leads to less stress on joints and less breakdown during later stages of your event. Knowing you are training for strength with S&S should allow you to focus your tri sessions on technique. The tri events are much more technical than most perceive, your swim training should be focused almost entirely on perfecting technique, not logging meters. Same with running and cycling. The most efficient athletes perform best. S&S will go a long way towards building your body for better training, but please ... use some weight.
 
@Keep Lifting, it's all in the timing. If he can train with normal weights without adversely affecting his tri training, then normal weights are preferred, but then we are adding to his 12 weekly sessions. If he wants a little something, my suggestion may still help him become stronger.

-S-
 
I don't think you're the odd man out on this one, Keep Lifting. I agree with you on heaviness. Perhaps I should have said that I think he should start lighter on the weights to phase them into his training to make sure he can handle the additional sessions. Once things feel good, then go heavy and keep it heavy.

When racing bikes was my primary activity, I wish I knew about heavy weights. I have no doubt I would have been faster. Healthier, too.
 
It was too much for me when I was training for a tri I raced a year and one week ago, as much as I didn't want it to be, and I was only doing one session per day.

I can see a different approach that wouldn't be too much and would build that strength and strength endurance nicely over time. Train the grinds. I would do presses one day, squats another, and a long, steady rack hold another (10 minutes total in the rack). These are called "grinds" in the community as opposed to the ballistic snatches, swings, and cleans. This way you get the benefit of strength training without the high-intensity V02 effect.

The squats and presses could be arranged in a number of ways, all of them beneficial. You can do traditional sets of 1, 3, 5, 8, or 10 reps. Another approach I like when working them in after a break is three sets total of 5, 7, 9 reps. Set one is 5, set two is 7, set three is 9. I'm not sure if you know how ladders work, but set 1 is 1 rep, set 2 is 2 reps, set 3, etc. They're another solid approach.

Rack holds refer to holding a single bell or a pair in the rack position in front of your chest. Elbows down, not flaring, tensing everything (quads, but, core, lats, etc.) You're tensing your lower body up, and upper body down. It's a standing hollow position. Hold them as long as you can until you accumulate a total of 10 minutes under tension.

Get-ups would be a good warm up or cool-down after training the main grind for the day. You could do five per side ala S&S, or you could do sets of 2 or 3 per side, a mini-ladder of 1-2-3, etc. I've never felt good doing more than 3 get-ups per side. My technique suffers after that.

So, basically, I'd practice the grinds three or four times per week. Tune them as your body dictates. Maybe two heavy days is good. Maybe five easy to moderate days. Maybe the classic easy day, moderate day, heavy day scheme works well for you. Listen to your body.
 
I am a regular cyclist and occasional runner (let's not even talk about swimming). S&S has helped me with both. I don't have any wisdom of how to maximize your tri capabilities or balance your priorities, but I can say with confidence that S&S will benefit your overall heath, wellness, and physical capabilities.
 
Yeah, don't get me wrong guys. Weight training certainly has its place for endurance athletes and many elite level athletes use some sort of weight training at different phases of their preparation.

The difference between a pro and a self coached athlete is becoming an ever growing gap these days though. A lot of elite level athletes are relying an daily blood monitoring to help shape their training. They test for things like glucose, PH, lactates and creatine kinase. That gives the coaches a much better idea of how the athlete is going compared to what you will have yourself if you rely on resting heart rate the morning before training.

The heart rate is a good gauge of cardiovascular recovery but it's not the best indicator of muscle damage from over training. The creatine kinase test is becoming more and more common to determine if an athlete has recovered from a heavy weight session & used to determine how hard the athlete should train for that day or if they should have a day off.

Most of us just don't have access to those type of tests. That's why I suggested to go for less volume with S&S rather than more, it's very easy to over train when you are already doing 12 sessions a week.
 
Thank you all for the great advice and pointers.

Over the last few weeks I've noticed that my I'm holding posture better in the run and have better tautness in the swim (both good things). It's hard to say exactly, however I think S&S has been key.

I will take the advice to stay heavy, but progress with caution. For now I've started swings with the 24kg and only do 5 sets. I'll keep going like this only adding sets and then weight when I've solidified my position and can progress comfortably.

Thank you for all the great insight.
 
TG, a lot of ways to do this; the most important is not to do swings before or after the bike.

Feel free to split the GUs into a separate session from your Sw.
 
@Pavel - is it the bent spine in cycling which makes it a poor mix with swings? If so would you advise the same caution mixing swings with rowing (machine)?

What sort of gap between cycling and rowing would you recommend?

Thanks
 
TriGuy said:
I'm holding posture better in the run and have better tautness in the swim
Click to expand...

That is what i found too (not a triathlete though yet, just enjoy swimming and running), and I think that is to be expected, TGUs will do wonders for your swimming (the tension throughout the body in overhead and rotational positions translates very very well to the freestyle swim, and swings once got described as stationary running on here somewhere)

cycling is another thing, that would probably be helped a lot more by squats, however S&S won't have a negative impact either... careful with combining swings and biking, better do them on different days (no idea why but they do have an impact on my biking abilitites when done too close together)
TGUs go well with everything, but if you do them and a running/biking/swimming session close together then do TGUs first (they will suffer from LSD work if done right after, as will every other strength move)

I would try to do TGUs as often as possible (they really are an awesome exercise), and swings 2x a week on nonBiking days. However you will need to stay very conservative with the weights and effort, and forget about the goals!
you will need to pay careful attention to staying aerobic during all the swings (you get enough conditioning from your sport training, and triathlon is about 98% aerobic so train accordingly), so take it easy and see it as what it is intended to be, a recharge! if you feel like going for a marathon (the real one, not the couch version) right after an S&S session then you're doing it right!
 
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