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Other/Mixed Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
Many sources (including the Polar App) indicate Zone 2 is 60-70% of Max and Zone 3 is 70-80% of Max

If Im 40 (180 MHR) my MAF would be about 140 + or - adjustments

Zone 3 126-144
Zone 2 108-126

Ah, OK... Yeah, I think that may be reasonable, and for general trainees it's probably a good target. But I suspect if you go with the zone 2 training as described in the Peter Attia podcast, it would be a little higher than your Polar indicates. It also depends somewhat on the activity. Cycling, rowing, running, all may be a little different in really targeted zone 2 training for a trained endurance athlete.

Interested in @offwidth 's thoughts here...
 

KLB81

Level 3 Valued Member
Ah, OK... Yeah, I think that may be reasonable, and for general trainees it's probably a good target. But I suspect if you go with the zone 2 training as described in the Peter Attia podcast, it would be a little higher than your Polar indicates. It also depends somewhat on the activity. Cycling, rowing, running, all may be a little different in really targeted zone 2 training for a trained endurance athlete.

Interested in @offwidth 's thoughts here...
I am currently Rowing a few times a week , either 30 mins at a 138 target HR or 45 mins at a 123 Target HR

Also swing twice a week and snatch once a week, repeats set for a Max HR around 145 and average around 128, Currently I can swing a 32 6 reps / :90 or Snatch a 16 5 reps / :80 a hit those numbers

open to ideas to improve the programing
 

LoneRider

Level 6 Valued Member
Generally speaking, people stepping up their exercise from a 7 to anything higher should work to develop a bigger aerobic base, a bigger strength base, or preferably both.

@Anna C the trick is how to do both WITHOUT overtraining. I've found as the years have advanced that it's a very fine balancing act. Quadrant 3 in Easy Strength has shown me how to do the bigger strength base, and the bigger aerobic base I'm finding in books such as Slow jogging, Uphill Athlete and the like.

Thanks to all who've been contributing to this thread too, because it's caused me to distill two rules of thumb out of it for big aerobic base building:
  1. Keep intensity low (Zone 2 or below if you follow things like the Heart Rate Drift)
  2. Do so as often as possible, but keep in mind this is a months/years sort of game not a days/weeks sort of game.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
@Anna C

Well… as we all probably know there are a variety of HR Zone systems out there.
Some are based upon HRMax
Some are based upon AeT
Some are based upon who knows what….

These days I personally subscribe (as many here already know) to the zone system outlined by the good folks over at Uphill Athlete

Zone 1: AeT-20% to AeT-10%​
Zone 2: AeT-10% to AeT​
Zone 3: AeT to LT(AnT)​

The ‘catch’ is that ones needs to determine ones AeT. In order of accuracy from highest to least the ways to do this are: Gas Exchange Test | Blood Lactate Test | Talk Test / MAF

I believe that Anna is right in that rowing, running, and cycling are indeed a little bit different in targeted zone training. (How much… I don’t know) Folks that do Lactate Testing generally perform the test whilst the athlete is performing their activity of choice.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
These days I personally subscribe (as many here already know) to the zone system outlined by the good folks over at Uphill Athlete

Zone 1: AeT-20% to AeT-10%Zone 2: AeT-10% to AeTZone 3: AeT to LT(AnT)
Thanks... curious for you, where does that put your zone 2, relative to your MAF per the MAF formula?
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
@Anna C the trick is how to do both WITHOUT overtraining. I've found as the years have advanced that it's a very fine balancing act. Quadrant 3 in Easy Strength has shown me how to do the bigger strength base, and the bigger aerobic base I'm finding in books such as Slow jogging, Uphill Athlete and the like.

Thanks to all who've been contributing to this thread too, because it's caused me to distill two rules of thumb out of it for big aerobic base building:
  1. Keep intensity low (Zone 2 or below if you follow things like the Heart Rate Drift)
  2. Do so as often as possible, but keep in mind this is a months/years sort of game not a days/weeks sort of game.
This is a great point! If aerobic training is the priority, I'd keep to the upper end of zone 2. If aerobic training is one of many priorities, I'd keep to the lower end, or even zone 1. Aerobic progress won't be as good but it'll still be beneficial, and it won't compromise other training. Many people feel that this "easy" cardio (what I would put in zone 1 or just into zone 2) actually helps recovery from other training. In my mind, focused zone 2 training isn't "easy", especially the more trained you are, aerobically... but it's not hard, either.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
Using strict MAF 180-age (64) +5 is 121
So by following TFTUA Z2 that puts me at 109 to 121
(Note: I’ll soon be 65 so I’ll be able to +10)

That being said my Talk Test / Nasal Breathing ventilatory markers put me closer to 127-130

Yes, sounds about right to me, and is what I would guess -- that for those with a pretty good aerobic base already, the zone 2 talked about in the podcast (which I believe would also correspond with Uphill Athlete zone 2) is right around MAF, and just a bit higher.

(Edit/Add: Some of this is accounted for in the MAF formula adjustments.)
 
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LoneRider

Level 6 Valued Member
This is a great point! If aerobic training is the priority, I'd keep to the upper end of zone 2. If aerobic training is one of many priorities, I'd keep to the lower end, or even zone 1. Aerobic progress won't be as good but it'll still be beneficial, and it won't compromise other training. Many people feel that this "easy" cardio (what I would put in zone 1 or just into zone 2) actually helps recovery from other training. In my mind, focused zone 2 training isn't "easy", especially the more trained you are, aerobically... but it's not hard, either.
Per some calculations on the Runningversity calculator my zones are as follows:

ZONE 1 (Z1)< 144 BPM
ZONE 2 (Z2)145 BPM - 154 BPM
ZONE 3 (Z3)155 BPM - 165 BPM
ZONE 4 (Z4)166 BPM - 175 BPM
ZONE 5 (Z5)176 BPM - 186 BPM

I was using MAF for most of 2020 and 2021, only switching to the above mid-last month. Per MAF my Aerobic Threshold is at 142 BPM, and I usually trained with 137 BPM as my ceiling in a conservative heart rate.

Having switched to the Runningversity heartrate system, thus far I'm finding it a reasonable roadwork heart rate measure (I usually run or ruck for said roadwork with the occasional swim). I don't usually test my heartrate swimming for any reason just i'm not too crazy about getting my heart rate monitor wet.

@Anna C with the advice you gave me, since I have other physical activities I do (Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiujitsu) as well as kettlebell and barbell training for my strength base, I generally will start walking if my heart rate whilst running hits too close to 154 BPM (150-152 BPM). Rarely to never does my heart rate exceed 140 BPM when rucking. Most likely I'll keep my lower limit of Zone 2 as 145-150 BPM.

For instance today with a 40 lbs ruck I went 20 minutes out and as many back, with an average pace of 18:20 (min:sec) and a max of 11:05 (min:sec), and average HR of 121 BPM and max of 133 BPM. Terrain was fairly flat and the trails I used are paved.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
So here is an example of a recent ride… not easy…but not super hard either.
BB8FA7F4-C326-4C45-B37F-E257788FE2E2.jpeg
Forgive the zone naming nomenclature. It’s nothing that I can change. But as you can see I was either just above my AeT and under about 57% of the ride. Lots of hills, wind, and quite cold temps.

***Edit***
Not a training ride but more of a fun/performance ride
 
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Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
So here is an example of a recent ride… not easy…but not super hard either.
View attachment 15759
Forgive the zone naming nomenclature. It’s nothing that I can change. But as you can see I was either just above my AeT and under about 57% of the ride. Lots of hills, wind, and quite cold temps.

***Edit***
Not a training ride but more of a fun/performance ride

Yep, seems about like my rides tend to be.... hard-ish, and varied.

If you were to do a disciplined zone 2 ride, I'm thinking your would be all blue, green, and yellow (mostly yellow), and stay out of the orange and red completely. What do you think?
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
Yep, seems about like my rides tend to be.... hard-ish, and varied.

If you were to do a disciplined zone 2 ride, I'm thinking your would be all blue, green, and yellow (mostly yellow), and stay out of the orange and red completely. What do you think?
Oh yes absolutely. In fact the other riding I do during the week is exactly like that. (Except when discipline falls apart and I end up in some kind of shootout with some random cyclist…)
 

KLB81

Level 3 Valued Member
I'm glad I can see I was misunderstanding what many were calling "Zone 2"

I only added the Rowing at 123HR (68% of Max, MAF -15) because I was reading about so many people doing "Zone 2" sessions, sounds like those mean closer to regular MAF
 

silveraw

Level 7 Valued Member
I don't know, but I would say go with the 40 min 3x/week just under MAF HR for 12 weeks and see if you get any good effects. Easy... right? ;) (This is what I would do if I could wave a magic wand and make it happen without actually doing it... I am not sure if I can get that much time in, but I am intending to try to work towards it this spring/summer).
The first time I did Tactical Barbell's basebuilding program which is MAF steady state starting out at 35 minutes 3-5x a week and working up to 60+ minutes over 8 weeks I had dramatic results in lowered HR and ability to recover from strength training. The results stuck around for a surprisingly long time afterwards too while only doing 1 60minute MAF run every week or two.
 

LoneRider

Level 6 Valued Member
The first time I did Tactical Barbell's basebuilding program which is MAF steady state starting out at 35 minutes 3-5x a week and working up to 60+ minutes over 8 weeks I had dramatic results in lowered HR and ability to recover from strength training. The results stuck around for a surprisingly long time afterwards too while only doing 1 60minute MAF run every week or two.
Which edition of Tactical barbell has the basebuilding program? I've not read it in a while and would like to have a look at it.
 

LoneRider

Level 6 Valued Member
It is in the conditioning book. TB 2.
Thanks bud.

In any case for my non-strength related training aerobic running/rucking and ocean/pool swims are going to be the thing for base fitness building. I keep in mind Power to the People Professional's remark that a lifter's running and swimming wouldn't be a threat to elite long distance runners or swimmers like Phelps.
 
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Boris Bachmann

Level 7 Valued Member
All the numbers get away from me, but
I would say you're limiting it. But how much that limits YOU in what you want to do, depends on what you want to do. I do think it will help towards the goals you list below!

I would not guess that your aerobic capacity currently is in any way limiting your health.
Yeah, I mean, I understand that LISS is needed. I've had more than a few kids who just never could go "easy" enough for long enough to make progress in distance events (and I put quotes around 'easy' because it wasn't easy - they just couldn't discipline themselves to maintain a slower steady pace over a longer haul to accrue the aerobic benefits needed to really progress in longer events). For example, they couldn't complete a set of 10 x 500yd @ 6mins, even though their best 500 time was sub 5mins - they'd gas after one or two repeats and they were DONE. They were indeed 'deficient'. So, if this is what we are talking about, trust me, I get it. Without that foundation, growth will be hampered.
I get the idea in a swimming context. I'm just struggling to make it work w., for example, super high-rep KB work, or marathon sets of squatting (where my interests lie).
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
The first time I did Tactical Barbell's basebuilding program which is MAF steady state starting out at 35 minutes 3-5x a week and working up to 60+ minutes over 8 weeks I had dramatic results in lowered HR and ability to recover from strength training. The results stuck around for a surprisingly long time afterwards too while only doing 1 60minute MAF run every week or two.
I just read this book over the weekend and have debated if it is worth putting down the barbells to do the base building. Then when Pavel came out with this article (Break up with Your Strength Tool of Choice | StrongFirst) today, it definitely made me think it would be worthwhile.
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
I'm just struggling to make it work w., for example, super high-rep KB work, or marathon sets of squatting (where my interests lie).
Yeah, I'm not sure what to make of that either. GS (kettlebell sport) athletes who do the marathon or half marathon events might have some insights.

I can't help but think that anything that requires a lot of fuel production, as your events do, would be helped by a big aerobic engine. It is the most efficient way for the body to produce ATP, and with the least metabolic waste.
 
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