Kettlebell Aerobic kettlebell strategies

[Bret S.]

Listed below are strategies I use for aerobic benefit while training with kettlebells, the first one is a 20 min/40set VWC session. The day I made this video it was 97 degrees in my training area so you'll see me start to hurt about halfway through, I was scheduled for 60 sets but that wasn't in the cards that day. My HR pattern is more jagged and erratic because of the excessive heat. I'll do either a 40, 60 or 80 sets twice per week now.
**Video removed (copyright music)



These are the cleans I use to drive up the heart rate


I started with ladders of 2 rungs of double clean x2, double C&J x 2, double front squat x 2 and 2 pullups, those are the first 3 hills in the graph. Following that were supersets of ring pushups and pullups @ 8-10 reps each x 4. The last 4 hills are the clean clusters. It takes less than 4 mins to get in 48 cleans per cluster and 192 cleans (96 per hand) are the total for 4 clusters. You can substitute heavy snatches, swings and other ballistics, I'm doing the anchored cleans to drive up the HR more than the double cleans, I also need a break from hinging too much as VWC involves 100's of hinges.


Then there are straight A+A sets, this one was 2/3 snatches and 1/3 swings.

I attempt to do most of my KB work in this basic format, the thinking is if I'm doing the work anyway I may as well get some potential heart health benefits from it. Using this strategy and particularly after adding VWC into the mix my RHR has dropped from 60 to 48. I'm just curious if this comports with the mysterious strong endurance template at least in some small way. Doing things this way has cost me only a little time in terms of somewhat longer sessions as I wait for the HR to come down. I've found that OS crawling and rocking between sets brings the HR down faster and I get the bonus benefits of the OS work on top of it.

Is anybody else doing something like this?

Edit: As I understand it a reduction in RHR is due to an increase in stroke volume, this comes from an expansion of the left ventricle chamber no?

 

[Brookes]

I've found that OS crawling and rocking between sets brings the HR down faster and I get the bonus benefits of the OS work on top of it.

+1

Playing around with a HRM lately and was surprised by exactly this effect. Before I tried fast&loose, but rocking brings me down faster and my muscles lose tension as good or maybe better with rocking.

 

[Ryan T]

@Bret S. I've never done anything so "cardio" specific as VWC before. Usually my training fell into either the S&S camp, or the strength endurance of skill practice and complexes. I really should gather some HR metrics but haven't really wanted to shill out the $$$ at the moment.

I will say that since I've been consistent with my VWC and S&S practice, some activities of real life are easier. I was able to throw my kayaks around with one arm suspended against my hip, hoist them out of the water and back into hangers in my garage while talking on the phone and not be out of breath at all. And that was after mowing two yards in the heat. I have to admit, I felt like I was showing off to my wife a little bit, but I think that's permitted.

Edit: As I understand it a reduction in RHR is due to an increase in stroke volume, this comes from an expansion of the left ventricle chamber no?

The drop in RHR is a constant in the reviews I've read about VWC so your comment about the expansion of the left ventricle chamber makes sense.

Something I've been thinking about would be that periodized work with VWC would end up enhancing A+A because the aerobic base would be built out a lot more and may assist with replenishing the alactic system since there's a larger fuel tank. That's why I like your idea of knocking out a few rounds of it before moving into A+A work. But I may not be correct on my understanding of the energy pathway relationships.

+1

Playing around with a HRM lately and was surprised by exactly this effect. Before I tried fast&loose, but rocking brings me down faster and my muscles lose tension as good or maybe better with rocking.

I've noticed that fast and loose doesn't really seem to bring my HR down (or at least it doesn't feel like it). I may try rocking, rolling, and crawling to see if it would help.

 

[Kyle Kowalczuk]

Keep in mind that the fast and loose is designed to flush lactic acid before the next set during alactic training but may work independently of lowering heart rate as that can take longer depending on aerobic capacity

 

[Bret S.]

+1

Playing around with a HRM lately and was surprised by exactly this effect. Before I tried fast&loose, but rocking brings me down faster and my muscles lose tension as good or maybe better with rocking.

It could be that we breath easier on all fours due to evolution, maybe it's more natural? At any rate I discovered the HR drop by accident like you, yesterday as an experiment I did a 60 set VWC session and OS right after it, my HR dropped like a stone, then I stood up before the HR was down and noticed a spike afterward. I'm sure it's easier for the heart to pump blood around the body while crawling, maybe back pressure increases when we stand? At any rate it's part of my new 'strategy'

 

[Bret S.]

I felt like I was showing off to my wife a little bit, but I think that's permitted.

That's more than permitted, it's required!

Something I've been thinking about would be that periodized work with VWC would end up enhancing A+A because the aerobic base would be built out a lot more and may assist with replenishing the alactic system since there's a larger fuel tank.

I believe my ability to process lactate metabolites is increasing, anecdotal evidence only though. I'm really pleased with the strength, elasticity and durability of my body increasing, especially the shoulders, now I'm very hopeful to one day be able to snatch heavy and often. I had a bad groin tear that affected my whole hip area as well, it was risky to one hand swing heavy, now I can do it confidently and am very happy. Exciting stuff

 

[banzaiengr]

I've used a HR monitor for about 3 years. One thing you will see of course is that after finishing a set, your HR will go up before coming down. When we started in some of Al Ciampa's first protocols we didn't even use monitors we just took it on the neck. What I found was that just walking around seemed to lower my HR the quickest if that was what I was after. I don't think it matters much what you do, just keep it consistent and you should start seeing results.

The next thing I found and I recall Anna C stating the same was that it was funny how HR reacted. I recall days when I thought that I felt great and then my HR may be higher. Then again days when I was short on sleep and my HR was lower. Something else we always seemed to notice was that after a day or two off our HR seemed to be a bit higher. Ya, believe it or not Anna C actually takes a few days off.

Al wanted us to eventually get off the monitor and go more by feel. I kind of became dependent on the monitor and was never really able to shake the habit. I kind of look at it as a very good tool to try and stay away from over training. Ensuring that I let my HR go down to a measure that would allow the next set to be done without going much over MAF.

It's also fun to use when doing HIIT or Tabata, compare your highest reading with your HR max. Did I actually go that hard?

 

[Anna C]

Getting down on all fours will lower the HR, as will bending over. The requirements on the heart are different when the body's position is changed. As Al once quipped in his inimitable way, "Even biology can't escape the laws of physics."

 

[Deleted member 5559]

@Bret S. I haven't done any 15:15 sets since I've had my HR monitor. When looking at the VWC plot, it looks like a tempo run. Do you ever do 10/20sets (5/10min), rest for a few (3/5) minutes then repeat a few times or do you only do non-stop?

 

[Bret S.]

What I found was that just walking around seemed to lower my HR the quickest if that was what I was after. I don't think it matters much what you do, just keep it consistent and you should start seeing results.

Here's the difference I've seen in my own graphs.
From 8-8-18


From 8-20-18

What I noticed is the trajectory difference, in the 8-20 session I was crawling/rocking, then stood up and did fast & loose, when I stood up the HR bumped up and the trajectory changed as well, not scientific but notable nonetheless. I'll continue to play with it..
I see HR variations with hot weather making a big difference, sleep, fatigue and diet seem to be factors as well. I haven't played with HIIT yet as I'm saving my ammunition for VWC

 

[Bret S.]

@Bret S. I haven't done any 15:15 sets since I've had my HR monitor. When looking at the VWC plot, it looks like a tempo run. Do you ever do 10/20sets (5/10min), rest for a few (3/5) minutes then repeat a few times or do you only do non-stop?

I only do non-stop per KJ's instructions, he lays out a clear path and I'm staying on it for the foreseeable future. I have no problem playing with variations but am now focused on the program as written. It would be interesting to experiment with it a bit.

 

[banzaiengr]

Here's the difference I've seen in my own graphs.
From 8-8-18
View attachment 6156

From 8-20-18
View attachment 6157
I haven't played with HIIT yet as I'm saving my ammunition for VWC

I don't think you'd see a huge difference between VWC and HIIT, I think VWC foots that bill.

 

[Bret S.]

I don't think you'd see a huge difference between VWC and HIIT, I think VWC foots that bill.

Yes, VWC feels like a sustained HIIT almost, or at least a repeating and sustained interval type format. I feel energized and springy after a VWC session.

 

[Bret S.]

Another example, this session was a pyramid up to 5 and back, it was clean, press, squat, pullup with a single bell working one side then the other concurrently and finishing with pullups. After each set I rest until HR comes back down.

 

[Bret S.]

This is the HR chart from today's session, started with a push/pull superset of slow ring push-ups and chin-ups totaling 4 supersets (didn't have the HRM activated for the 1st set) of 8-10 mostly for warmup purposes.

Next was A+A squats, sets of 4 x 15 total sets followed by 1HSW x 7 x 10 sets for a total of 25 sets of A+A work.

Finally rounding things off with 1 + 1 getups, this was more of a strength test, I hadn't done getups heavier than 32k for 6 mos, so today I tested strength at 40k and was successful on both left and right. I'm thinking VWC is maintaining prior strength gains while increasing overall strength, sometimes in some not so subtle ways.

 

[Anna C]

Next was A+A squats, sets of 4 x 15 total sets followed by 1HSW x 7 x 10 sets for a total of 25 sets of A+A work.

Your HR profile looks nice. Overall low, nice recovery, no upward trend. Looks to me like you're in good shape!

Regarding A+A, @aciampa might further clarify, but I don't think squats can really be considered A+A. And that's the confounding part, because as you see, they produce and almost identical HR profile to the swings that follow, and swings are A+A. But squats by nature are glycolytic. It has to do with the muscle fibers recruited. Swings (when truly explosive) recruit the fastest fiber and are alactic, where squats recruit the medium fast fiber and are glycolytic and lactate-producing. Not that that's a bad thing, but it's not A+A.

 

[Al Ciampa]

Regarding A+A, @aciampa might further clarify, but I don't think squats can really be considered A+A.

A+A is repeat training (work... rest... work... rest), but not all repeat training is A+A.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Your HR profile looks nice. Overall low, nice recovery, no upward trend. Looks to me like you're in good shape!

Regarding A+A, @aciampa might further clarify, but I don't think squats can really be considered A+A. And that's the confounding part, because as you see, they produce and almost identical HR profile to the swings that follow, and swings are A+A. But squats by nature are glycolytic. It has to do with the muscle fibers recruited. Swings (when truly explosive) recruit the fastest fiber and are alactic, where squats recruit the medium fast fiber and are glycolytic and lactate-producing. Not that that's a bad thing, but it's not A+A.

Wouldn't the real difference (for any specific movement) be dependent on total TUT? If you only train squats in singles or doubles for 6-8 seconds and your swings run out to 30-40 seconds, a set of the squats will rely less on glycolysis and the swings more so.

In either case it isn't clear that you can selectively train just the fastest fibers, and even they are PCr/Glycolytic Bi fuel capable (all the fast fiber types are). You can train to ensure you hit the fastest fibers but you'll be recruiting everything else to do so.

This is the HR chart from today's session, started with a push/pull superset of slow ring push-ups and chin-ups totaling 4 supersets (didn't have the HRM activated for the 1st set) of 8-10 mostly for warmup purposes.

Next was A+A squats, sets of 4 x 15 total sets followed by 1HSW x 7 x 10 sets for a total of 25 sets of A+A work.

Finally rounding things off with 1 + 1 getups, this was more of a strength test, I hadn't done getups heavier than 32k for 6 mos, so today I tested strength at 40k and was successful on both left and right. I'm thinking VWC is maintaining prior strength gains while increasing overall strength, sometimes in some not so suttle ways.
View attachment 6180

This is a good observation and a great idea to periodically test - I'm very interested to see how this effects higher RM endurance and 1RM maintenance or even improvement.

The science says high volume will increase 1RM, but not anywhere near as well as working closer to max loading.

But...if you maintain your 1RM (esp at a very respectable load) and manage a notable increase in endurance at 70-80% by volume training with even lighter loads, I'd say you've improved function qualitatively, in ways that aught to translate well to unprogrammed exertion.

The next question is how sustainable? At what point does the potential for overuse injury = the potential for tweaking a muscle at higher loads? And if the strategy is driven by managing intervals by time and HR, mightn't you swap out other movements and sidestep the possibility of overuse entirely?

A distant last question would need bloodwork and/or anecdotal evidence to answer - is this improving your hormone levels compared to other strategies that tout similar overall benefit?

Makes me want to pick up a copy of VWC...

 

[Bret S.]

Your HR profile looks nice. Overall low, nice recovery, no upward trend. Looks to me like you're in good shape!

Thank you Anna! Maybe my mad methods are having some benefit

Regarding A+A, @aciampa might further clarify, but I don't think squats can really be considered A+A. And that's the confounding part, because as you see, they produce and almost identical HR profile to the swings that follow, and swings are A+A. But squats by nature are glycolytic. It has to do with the muscle fibers recruited

A+A is repeat training (work... rest... work... rest), but not all repeat training is A+A.

Yes I plead guilty to conflating the two under the A+A banner. From what I understand it's the ballistics that come closest to fast fiber recruitment and avoid glycolysis most effectively.
Methods of repeat training involving more glycolysis like squats for instance have different benefits as I understand it. Though the energy pathways used are different I'm unclear as to the reason why the CV benefits aren't quite the same. The aerobic 'pumping down' between sets is the same no? Isn't the ATP replenishment mechanism the same regardless of lactate level?

 

[Bret S.]

This is a good observation and a great idea to periodically test - I'm very interested to see how this effects higher RM endurance and 1RM maintenance or even improvement.

I wish I could OH press, that would be a good indicator. However writhing at different angles under a heavy getup bell tells it's own tale. I'll be testing here and there.

The science says high volume will increase 1RM, but not anywhere near as well as working closer to max loading

This is true I believe

The next question is how sustainable? At what point does the potential for overuse injury = the potential for tweaking a muscle at higher loads?

What I've found is I have a much higher durability in the posterior chain and shoulders, this I believe is from the additional elasticity gained doing 1000's of snatches in the VWC format.