Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Yes.
Kettlebell After 4+ years of S&S
- Thread starter Kozushi
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offwidth
Level 10 Valued Member
Thanks... saved me from busting out my slide rule...1g = 9.8 m/s/s is acceleration of Earth's gravity
Additional g forces are proportional to square of swing speed. Assuming 1m arm-bell lever length, and
V = velocity of bell at bottom of swing
A = centripetal acceleration
xg = apparent weight (force) multiplier at bottom of swing
we get:
V (m/s) xg
---------------
3.1 2g
4.4 3g
5.4 4g
6.3 5g
8.8 9g
Here is an excellent scientific paper for this discussion:
Mechanical Demands of Kettlebell Swing Exercise : The Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research
xercise. Sixteen men performed 2 sets of 10 swings with 16, 24, and 32 kg, 2 back squats with 20, 40, 60, and 80% 1-repetition maximum (1RM), and 2 jump squats with 0, 20, 40, and 60% 1RM. Sagittal plane motion and ground reaction forces (GRFs) were recorded during swing performance, and GRFs...journals.lww.com
The authors measured a consistent peak of 2,000 Newtons of force with a 24K kettlebell (Fig. 3 in the paper).
This translates to 2000/(24x9.8) = 8.5g which is equivalent to statically pulling 204Kg.
If the same kettlebell velocity is maintained with a 32K (which is a big if), then the same 8.5g applies and the static pull scales linearly to 272Kg.
barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Statically pulling 204 kg for a very brief period of time.
Which isn't the same as deadlifting 204 kg, where >204 kg most be sustained for the whole lift.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
1H 32 kg swings are no joke, I agree.
But they don't feel nearly as hard as pulling 200 kg from the floor to me.
I could see some people trying to make the leap of saying:
"1 handed swinging a 32 kg kettlebell is just as hard as deadlifting 200 kg."
barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
True... Energy exertion is power x time. A single swing has max power for how long... half a second?
Swinging 32K a 100 times is a lot of max power x time, though.
Also, a lot of deadlifts at sub-maximal levels lend themselves to new PRs over time.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
One has to be careful about directly translating power x time training to maximal strength.
In the summer, I do a lot of rowing, both on the water and on the erg.
It's great for my conditioning and hits a lot of the same muscles that I use in weightlifting, through similar triple extension movement patterns.
Does improving my 500m rowing split time improve my max barbell snatch?
Nah, not really.
But it increases my work capacity, which means I can get more sub-maximal snatch practice in.
More sub-maximal snatch practice makes me better when I attempt maxes.
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barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
I hear you... Same caution applies when comparing 100 swings at 48K with 400 swings at 12K.
As taxing the heavy swing can be, cleaning a heavy sandbag is a mother (minimal momentum).
Within the hour, I'll attempt two 5-4-3-2-1 descending ladders in 15 minutes of 90lb sandbag getups, with a clean before each rung. If I pass, I'll start introducing a 110lb sandbag to my rotation next session.
The devil finds work for idle
NormanOsborn
Level 5 Valued Member
Agreed. My PB was 175kg, and that was a long time ago. One handed Swings with the 32 are hard, but not in the same league in terms of effort involved.
That said, I couldn't do a Get Up with a 32 to save my life right now!
Erik Hournou
Level 7 Valued Member
Rowing doesnt have the same eccentric loading as swings though.
barrak
Level 6 Valued Member
Darn! Took me 17 minutes flat. I'll re-take the test in two weeks.
I thought the cleans would be the limiting factor, but they were a breeze. Work capacity was.
LejonBrames
Level 5 Valued Member
I always used to try to rush and skip the progressions because I thought I was "stronger" than I am. Lately, I have been following the progressions in 2.0, and that's been good for getting a feel for the next sized bell, but your recent posts on this(I think I commented on the last one too) have really helped to instill in me that going a size down is not like a "wasted" workout, if that makes sense.
Hearing about your progress and success has helped me to accept where I am, and not try to "chase" a heavier bell prematurely.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
Well...
In comparison, swings don't have the same quad loading or back loading as rowing.
And if maximal eccentric loading of hams and glutes is the most important criteria, barbell RDLs are the place to go, anyway.
And while swings and rowing are both awesome strength-endurance conditioning modalities, neither are best in class for building limit strength or max explosive power as measured by 1RM kg lifted.
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440 x 100 in 5 mins. No thanks.
Erik Hournou
Level 7 Valued Member
True that, i wouldnt say swings are the best, just that for most people they are the more practical and simple option.
I'm not arguing against barbells, again, in my opinion the best way to train is using many tools, and many modalities, so combining deadlifts and kettlebell swings seems like a really good idea to me, heck, even throw in some RDLs in there, sprints, you name it.
watchnerd
Level 8 Valued Member
That's what I do.
I use them all: kettlebells, barbells, dumbbells, clubs, maces, gymnastic rings, resistance bands, bodyweight, rowing, farmer's handles....whatever suits the goal at hand.
I need a fairly high novelty component to my programming, else I get bored quickly and demotivated.
Erik Hournou
Level 7 Valued Member
There's a pretty big case to be made for varied training in terms of neuroplasticity, so for that reason alone I say the more the merrier!
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I believe this to be true. Thus, while my core programme is S&S, I think it has always been important for me to "not seriously" train other moves: presses, chinups, pullups, dips, deadlifts, 1 arm pushups etc... It isn't about really making progress with these moves as much as training the body and mind to be ready for movements that do not resembles swings and getups!
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I have done and still can do S&S with the 40kg bell (I can do the TGU sets with the 48 even), but I feel the 28kg is ideal for the moment, with the 32 being my "heavy days" bell. While S&S does certainly improve absolute strength in an impressive way _to a point_, after that it is mostly about endurance and about movement under stress and resistance. So, I'd say compressing rest times for the swings and holding the postures of the TGU are more important than moving up in weight!
Since we're getting into deadlifts or heavy barbell work versus S&S swings, I think the swings are better than deadlifts in two ways: 1. endurance conditioning and 2. movement patterns - a swing has more movement in it - not a big deal perhaps, but I think it matters from my experience in judo. The range of motion of a swing covers more of what "life may throw at you" to sort of quote the S&S book than the range of motion of a deadlift. Otherwise, however, in every other respect, I think deadlifts are superior! Swings can get you ready to start deadlifting, which is one nice aspect to swings. Also, there are other barbell moves that cover even more range of motion than swings do, like snatches, clean and jerk etc.. Again, it sort of all comes down to convenience. I can do S&S in my living room without destroying my floor, and while I'm giving up absolute strength to the barbell athlete, I'm probably not giving up much or anything at all in the endurance and movement departments. Endurance counts too! It's like the book says, the kettlebell is like the AK47 - not so good a gun as the M16 but easier to use.
marvinthemartian
Level 5 Valued Member
Isn't the range of motion in the deadlift bigger than in the swing? In the swing you generate pretty much all the force to move the KB by extending your hips and for the rest of the swing all you do is hold on to the KB.
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