Kettlebell After 4+ years of S&S
- Thread starter Kozushi
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Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Oh, in that sense, yes of course. I'm just thinking of my shoulder rotating a lot more in the swing - the weight physically moves through more space than in the deadlift.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
GREAT! I think it's ideal for home training and as a base for everything else. I think it's important to move under some resistance in other ways too though, which could mean doing not-seriously other moves like pushups, chinups, presses etc at weights that won't be too challenging, going for hikes, playing sports etc...
NormanOsborn
Level 5 Valued Member
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I think that's one very good kind of additional movement training that is helpful. I absolutely think it's necessary to move under resistance in other ways than just the S&S moves, in order to develop and preserve all-round readiness for anything and just for the good ole sake of keeping limber! But for me the distinction is between "moving under resistance" and serious "strength training" with those other moves. I have done supplementary strength training with other moves for a few months here and there and made some modest strength gains (worked up to a 40kg kettlebell press, 2 one hand one leg pushups, a deadlift of I forget, but something like 390lbs, 11 pullups, 10 full dips...) but normally I'm doing the other moves just to sort of keep my body moving in other ways. Weird to say but S&S already gives me a lot of transferable strength to these other moves, so I suppose doing the other moves is more about practicing APPLICATION of S&S strength to different modalities.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
This reminds me of why I restarted judo and kendo a few years back. Basically I had the choice of starting something new and starting back at square one again, or I had the choice of continuing my journey and deepening my understanding and skill. I decided that it would be more pleasurable and exciting to continue my old journeys rather than to start back at the beginning again with new things.
What I've found is that as much fun as it is to start something new, it's even more fun to get really good and go farther with the things I am already good at. I'm still going to always learn new things, but I'm never giving up my old things. I'm not for example going to give up studying Korean to focus exclusively on Old English and Old Norse. I'll add those ones on, but the Korean is going to continue!
Timmer C
Level 6 Valued Member
I can do S&S in my condo’s living room, a place it would be inconceivable to set up barbells in. But this forces me to up my game. During 32kg swings, I need an iron-clad grip so that a flying bell doesn’t trash my living room. During 24kg or 28kg get ups, I need to maintain a solid base of support throughout a dynamic range of motion so that I don’t trash my floor. On the one hand, it’s a little bit crazy. On the other hand, most of the opportunities to use strength in my daily life require a similar mindfulness of my surroundings (moving heavy furniture without scuffing walls and floors, hauling heavy packages without scuffing doors and elevators, hauling heavy plants without spilling dirt, etc.)
Erik Hournou
Level 7 Valued Member
I love your mindset, we are very versatile creatures, I want to know not just how many things I can be good at, but how many I can excel at!
Hung
Level 8 Valued Member
You weight nearly 100 kg my friend, with muscle. I doubt that light people could pull 145 kg in convent stance without pulling deadlift before.
And also, because deadlift uses different muscles, so other training could affect/not affect your deadlift weight depends on the exercise works your weak links in deadlift or not. For example, I swing 32 kg and 36 kg easily, I swing double 36 kg for multi sets of 5 but my deadlift stays at 150 kg for a few months. My hinge is good, but my upper back is weak. When I add some clean, snatch and high pull to my training; my 1rm deadlift jump to 195 kg, without training deadlift seriously (I still did some deadlift but as a demonstration for others and it was like) - because it strengthens my upper back.
My opinion is, yes, swing makes you stronger, but the proof you have is not convinced.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Good point about the mindfulness. Doing S&S reminds me of the same level of mindfulness I need in kendo and judo. S&S and these sports activate some kind of innate natural primeval alertness.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
This picture you see is the "after 3.5 years of S&S" picture. I look the same now. My before S&S pictures were always with shirts on - for a reason, hahaha!
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Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Yes, my "method" if we can call it such is not really scientific. It's anecdotal. It just applies to me.
I agree with you. I imagine that lighter people would have to lift a lighter deadlift than me even after attaining Timeless Simple. And, yes, to progress with barbell work, a barbell is going to be required!
But people who want to get into deadlifting who have already attained Simple through S&S training are going to be able to start at a heavier weight of deadlift than if they hadn't done S&S yet. The kettlebell swing is similar enough to deadlifting as to provide some kind of preparatory training for it. At least this is something I think I've learned from reading these forums.All this talk of deadlifting is making me want to get my deadlifting bar set up again in the basement!
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
And please report back to us. My own experience is just my own experience. I'd like to know what others experience with this.If I recall correctly, I think some people have reported unlocking about a 1.5 BW Deadlift after reaching Simple. When I get there, I will test it and hopefully not be too disappointed
Mike Torres
Senior Instructor, Jiu-Jitsu Brown Belt
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Heavy KB swings, snatches, and cleans can definitely carryover to the barbell DL - like everything, it depends on the individual. Of course, if you want to DL heavy (aka specialize) you need to DL. But I’ve experienced this WTH effect from KB to barbell DL firsthand.If I recall correctly, I think some people have reported unlocking about a 1.5 BW Deadlift after reaching Simple. When I get there, I will test it and hopefully not be too disappointed
My max DL was 370lb when I was deadlifting regularly several years ago (2x/week). I backed off of the barbell when I started training BJJ consistently again in 2017, but I kept doing KB ballistics. When I tested my DL 1RM this summer before starting a new program, it had jumped to 395lb (at 183lb BW). It had been over 3 years since I was on any sort of regular DL program; I was only doing the occasional pulls every so often, just for variety.
So not only was my 1RM maintained with KB ballistics, it had improved. And then after 8 weeks on a custom Built Strong program, it jumped again to 415lb. But that was after a *lot* of deadlifting (4x/week) with built-in Plan Strong derived waviness.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
How heavy was your kettlebell and what were you doing with it exactly?
Just to throw in something, my judo coach (International/Olympic level - he's no joke) when it comes to weight training, he says that it's fundamentally the muscle that matters less than exactly what movement you're doing to acquire the muscle. Applying this idea to the swings to deadlift WTH effect, I think this comes all down to the virtual weight of the swings at the bottom of the swing. Lots of weight happens there and the muscles activated are pretty much the same ones as in the deadlift. At least, this is how I'm thinking about the conundrum.
It's like transferring the TGU's strength to one arm pushups. If we're talking about what muscles are being built with TGUs, they are covering much the same territory (and more of course) as the one arm pushup.
This kind of thinking is why I don't think it's important to _seriously_ train supplementary moves to S&S. I do think it's important to do other moves to keep the neuroplasticity happening but the S&S strength training is plenty good enough for pretty much anything!
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