Kettlebell After Swings - Low Back Loading

[Cyrus-II]

My Google Fu is failing me miserably. I'm looking for someone who can help me find a topic Pavel T took up many moons ago, and I don't remember if it was a book, or a video and when. This is the closest reference I found; Kettlebell - Quick forward bend between swing sets in S&S?

Basically is has to do with a flexion/extension load put on the lumber after doing swings. I seem to recall Pavel talking about certain activities that he recommended avoiding for a set period of time after doing swings. I seem to recall road cycling was discouraged. But I can't for the life of me remember anything beyond that. How long it was recommended to wait, which activities, whether or not one-hand or two-hand swing specific, and whether weight of the bell played a factor. So I'm trying to dig up some context for this nugget buried somewhere in my mind.

I'm doing a little research because of SI joint issues I've been dealing with since last Nov. I'm just now back into the "swing" of things and have been using the 32KG bell exclusively again with 2H swings. Trying to stick to Rule No. 1 (Don't get hurt).

Thanks.

 

[Mattye]

Hi mate, it's in enter the kettlebell where Pavel talks about not slouching after swings and putting your hands on your lower back and leaning back to stretch.

 

[Adachi]

From S&S 2.0:



This does not forbid forward bends in any and all cases.
It says to watch your spinal column post-session.

I walk and sit with impeccable posture in the wake of a session of swings.

in optimal conditions at home, I lie on my stomach, prop myself up on my elbows and punch in my session in my log.

I would say keep up this avoidance until things cool down. until you have forgotten about your day's session.

whenever things return to normal, maybe consider a forward bend stretch or anything else.

I believe it's associable with very warmed-up conditions in the lumbar and not wanting to give any loosened-up muscles, ligaments, tendons, or discs a chance to do anything squirrely.

I've made this mistake in the past.
And, that's something I only did once.
there was something deeply uncomfortable about it, and I've more aptly avoided it since.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Cyrus-II, read "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie for a good explanation of this. $10 or so and worth every penny.

-S-

 

[Mattye]

I've googled my SI joint/psoas/quadratus lumborum aches loads of times, but what really helps is less sitting, more movement and flexible steel.

 

[watchnerd]

From S&S 2.0:

View attachment 20519

This does not forbid forward bends in any and all cases.
It says to watch your spinal column post-session.

I walk and sit with impeccable posture in the wake of a session of swings.

in optimal conditions at home, I lie on my stomach, prop myself up on my elbows and punch in my session in my log.

I would say keep up this avoidance until things cool down. until you have forgotten about your day's session.

whenever things return to normal, maybe consider a forward bend stretch or anything else.

I believe it's associable with very warmed-up conditions in the lumbar and not wanting to give any loosened-up muscles, ligaments, tendons, or discs a chance to do anything squirrely.

I've made this mistake in the past.
And, that's something I only did once.
there was something deeply uncomfortable about it, and I've more aptly avoided it since.

I actually do the opposite.

After I spend a lot of time training with my lower back arched, I want to do flexion to restore a more neutral spine.

 

[Cyrus-II]

@Cyrus-II, read "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin McKenzie for a good explanation of this. $10 or so and worth every penny.

-S-

Yep, I've read through some of it about a year ago when I thought I only had lumbar issues (which I also have too), but thanks for the reminder. I'll go dig it up again.
I know you've had serious lumbar issues and his work was very helpful to you in your rehab journey. I found some of the movements helpful.

I was camping out in the desert in October for a couple weeks. My "hip joint" started acting up. I thought it was all lumbar. After I got back I got sick in Nov. Then the rest of the fam got sick...seems like Covid again. Then the younger two kids caught what I think was Noro. Then they gave it to me, then I passed it over to the wife and older kids. Before it was all over we were in January 2023.
Anyway, in that whole mess I got to my chiro friend and he patched me back up with multiple adjustments in Dec. Sometimes 5-6 a week. I've done a light January of S&S and some variety KB movements (DFSQ, 16KG snatches, C&P) just to feel things out, but I'm back in the saddle. The only thing that seems to bug me is one-hand swings. I think it's that torsion.

My chiro has taken x-rays and said that both SI joints are problematic and I've got a lot of scar tissue and my left side was extremely hard for him to adjust once I'd got myself into a pickle.

I remember one specific incident where I hurt my left "hip" with a fall skiing about ten years ago. Reflecting back, it's the same pain I've had recently with my SI. Although the chiro says that he's pretty sure I'd damaged it previous to that.

Anyway, I'm back to doing two handed swings with the 32KG and everything feels fine. And I'm following some PT protocols with various stretches of the hip joints that are supposed to help loosen some of this bound of scarring and strengthen the ligaments and tendons too. Deep goblet squats daily are also seeming to help, even though some days it can irritate it too. So I'm also looking to take any extra precautions I can. That's when I remembered Pavel stating something about low back protection post swing training.

Hi mate, it's in enter the kettlebell where Pavel talks about not slouching after swings and putting your hands on your lower back and leaning back to stretch.

Bingo! I think that's it...or perhaps he has a few other mentions too in some of his older books. I still remember some mention about road cyclists and swings and how that forward position on a road bike can be problematic. But pg. 26 and then part of what I was thinking of on pg. 143;

Don’t suck wind between sets by slumping forward, hands on knees! New Zealander Robin McKenzie, the physical therapist who has saved countless backs by emphasizing back extension and warning about flexion, explains: “…after vigorously exercising, we collapse “in a heap” and slouch badly. During vigorous exercise the joints of the spine are moved rapidly in many directions. This process causes a thorough stretching in all directions of the soft tissues surrounding the joints. In addition, the fluid gel contained in the spinal discs is loosened, and it seems that distortion or displacement can occur if, after exercise, an exercised joint is placed in an extreme posture.”

McKenzie gives an example of how just how vulnerable an athlete’s warm and loose back is to slouching. A distance runner “was pain-free during the event, but was so exhausted by running hard at high altitude that, right after the race, he bent over for about two minutes, his hands on his knees. While doing this, he suddenly had severe pain in the middle of the lower back, pain that did not go away even when he resumed a normal standing posture.” The runner “could not walk a step without sharp pain and . . . naturally assumed
that running had caused the pain.” As Rob Lawrence, Senior RKC, would say,
“It’s his fault.”

 

[North Coast Miller]

I actually do the opposite.

After I spend a lot of time training with my lower back arched, I want to do flexion to restore a more neutral spine.

I tend to do a series of little pelvic anterior/posterior tilt while standing between exertions. Sustained effort tends to “lock” the joints in place, sometimes in a less than perfect posture.

IIRC there was a study on back mechanics that demonstrated participants passive postures were shifted immediately after longish efforts, and stayed that way for many minutes following. There was a tendency to lose ROM, not gain it. Just an observation, after a jog I am def stiffer than when I started, very much so.

 

[Brett Jones]

Video of your swing?

 

[jozko]

If memory serves me properly, something similar was mentioned also in Power to the people. Something like not bending after physical activity, including running, as large part of lower back injuries occurs after that particular activity. He also mentioned that Russian coaches recommend reading a book lying on stomach.
However, it's quite possible he never said this and my memory sucks.

 

[jozko]

I've googled my SI joint/psoas/quadratus lumborum aches loads of times, but what really helps is less sitting, more movement and flexible steel.

Frequent and prolonged sitting is so bad in so many ways. Glutes, lower back, upper back, cardio-respiratory system, everything suffers.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Cyrus-II, the problem, or better said, the potential problem, is poor posture after your lower back has been warmed up via vigorous activity because then the connective tissue is more subject to deformation - to getting stretched out of shape.

It's nothing particular to swings, at least not that I'm aware of. Barbell deadlifts or a backyard game of football could also be cited as potential problems.

-S-

 

[Nacho]

Going for a walk after training can’t go wrong I think…

 

[Cyrus-II]

Video of your swing?

Ok, hopefully these links work. I put some videos out on the private log page and shared them off of OneDrive; https://www.strongfirst.com/communi...looking-for-feedback.21431/page-3#post-460135

Feel free to critique. I can take it. I'm a big boy.

 

[Cyrus-II]

Frequent and prolonged sitting is so bad in so many ways. Glutes, lower back, upper back, cardio-respiratory system, everything suffers.

I don't sit much at all any more. Usually just in meeting when I'm in the office a half a day out of the week, and then church and vehicle.

I have an adjustable desk and mostly stand. Usually I'm moving about while standing there. Usually up and down a half flight of stairs too, to grab coffee, tea, water, so it's not prolonged standing either. Maybe seven to ten hours a day like this. Then I also take "breaks" by sitting on an adjustable backless shop stool for perhaps 20 minutes at a time. Call that another 1.5-3 hours, depending upon the work day.

If I wasn't such a stingy tightwad I would have spent three times the price of my current adjustable desk frame and bought one that went all the way up to stand, and all the way down so I could sit on the floor.

 

[masa]

I have a bad back. Lotsa walking, pressing and farmer's walks is all I need at the moment. I do some crawling and marching as a warm up too. But that's it. Presses and carries as a Bryce Layne 50/20 style and crawling and marching like Aleks Salkin 9 min challenge program suggests. I'm staying fit and can go to work every morning. Maybe swings in the future if gods like Odin allows it, but until then, this will do....

 

[Anna C]

Ok, hopefully these links work. I put some videos out on the private log page and shared them off of OneDrive; https://www.strongfirst.com/communi...looking-for-feedback.21431/page-3#post-460135

Feel free to critique. I can take it. I'm a big boy.

Added some feedback on that thread... might help take some of the work off your hips and back.

 

[guardian7]

The concept of pratikriya, or counteracting movements from yoga is a useful one. I do things like just hang from the pullup bar after deadlifting or squats, a set of barbell only pressing after finishing and stripping the bar from my deadlift. Seems to get things "back into place" and feels better. I second a quick walk or a few min on the treadmill after working out in the gym.

 

[Brett Jones]

Added some feedback on that thread... might help take some of the work off your hips and back.

I was going to add the same feedback Anna had—not finishing your knee extension.

Could you do two things:
1) Video of your KB Deadlift (full view so we can see the feet as well)

2) Another video of your swings (one from the front—one-arm please—and one from the side and both in shorts)

 

[Cyrus-II]

I'll have to try and shoot a couple more videos this weekend. It's winter here and I have one pair of shorts out right now, and they are in the laundry.