Off-Topic Agriculture- the great tragedy?

[BennyWalks]

I think it's appropriate to see if anyone else here experiences similar thoughts- since there is an active interest in certain nutritional matters, and training in a way congrous with nature, these things can provoke certain thinking.

The neuroses, mass depression, the torture methods, the genocide of wildlife, the consequences for other animals of our domestication (the factory farm, the castrated pet)...I could go on you get the idea.

Yes we see certain 'advantages' of civilisation as indispensible or at the least, something it would be cruel to deny people. On that, some claims to agree or disagree with:

1. Generally we don't attempt take a balanced 'pros and cons' view of the matter.
2. We who have time and ability to engage in such luxuries as physical training and posting on message boards are perhaps enjoying a more than normal amount of the pros.
3. Take me as an example. If I was thrown into hunter gatherer life, I would be mentally and physically overwhelmed, suffer a great deal and quickly die. This is not an argument FOR post-agricultural humanity though, it's an argument AGAINST IT. I am a dysfunctional creature, bred and conditioned in captivity (speaking in metaphor as modern man as a zoo animal), no longer able to survive in the wild.

I am beginning to experience self esteem issues whenever I see a wild animal.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

@BennyWalks I'm with you in a lot of that.

Sometimes the absurdity of the world we've built around ourselves is hard to make any sense of but, as such thinking typically leads to bouts of depression, I have learned to dismiss them when I can and try to focus on something constructive I can do or something I have control over.

 

[Mirek]

I am beginning to experience self esteem issues whenever I see a wild animal.

You should not. Even neanderthals who are said to be stronger than homo sapiens were no match for the wildlife they
were hunting. And finally they were eradicated by nature. We, homo sapiens, survived and thrive because our superior brains
not muscles. Actually, wild animal should envy you but it is simply too dumb to do so.

And if suddenly whole humanity was thrown back in stone age? Well, then most would die, but not all. And with every
further generation the offspring would be more and more fit for the environment. It is evolution.

All those good old times I hear people to long for were just old, but not good.

 

[Hung]

I come from Vietnam. I'm proud of our agriculture history and our culture.

With the development of economics and production, we create more food and have a better life; and from that we have a chance to think about what's right and what's wrong. Our culture and our civilization develop from that.

Animal life is brutal; for example when a male lion wins the due with the current male in the pride it will take the pride and kill all the cubs so it can reproduce. Praying mantis eats it prays alive (and it attacks bird, cat, snake, mouse); also female praying mantis is famous for eating their mate after (or even during) the mating. Some male animal attack other males at the reproductive organs at the mating session.

You can argue that the civilization did many wrongs to the world; but without that we don't even know what is right and what is wrong - and we could not change if we have no idea of rightness. Without civilization who can guarantee that we could do better?

I believe with this type of question, religion and the personal belief in higher values could help.

 

[Steve Freides]

@BennyWalks, hang on until the pandemic is over. We are all - and I include "civilization" in this - are trying to do the best we can with what we have, where we are. If you are training as most of us here are training, you are less "dysfunctional" and better prepared for anything life may throw at you than the overwhelming majority of your friends, neighbors and colleagues. And that ain't nothin'.

-S-

 

[wespom9]

We wouldn't be having this conversation if it wasn't for agriculture.
I don't think agriculture is to blame, maybe moreso the insidious aspect of hyper-industrialization are at fault for some of society's blemishes.

 

[BennyWalks]

@BennyWalks I'm with you in a lot of that.

Sometimes the absurdity of the world we've built around ourselves is hard to make any sense of but, as such thinking typically leads to bouts of depression, I have learned to dismiss them when I can and try to focus on something constructive I can do or something I have control over.

You should not. Even neanderthals who are said to be stronger than homo sapiens were no match for the wildlife they
were hunting. And finally they were eradicated by nature. We, homo sapiens, survived and thrive because our superior brains
not muscles. Actually, wild animal should envy you but it is simply too dumb to do so.

It's got nothing to do with relative abilities. I simply see wildlife as being intrinsically and of itself BETTER than domesticated life. And I'm convinced that regardless of the accuracy of this view, it is at least in part a sign of something healthy emerging within me.

Also it's arguable that early homo sapiens were in some ways far more mentally capable than us.

Even from an article attempting to be critical of this widespread biological view: 'This is true, but it is false to suppose that evolution must always select for intelligence. Domesticated animals have generally smaller brains than their wild ancestors precisely because they no longer need to make so many decisions. Yet they are also far more numerous and successful. All evolution cares about is how many of your grandchildren survive. It's not picky about how and why this happens.' Why it's unlikely we are more stupid than our hunter-gatherer ancestors | Andrew Brown [misleading title]

I come from Vietnam. I'm proud of our agriculture history and our culture.

With the development of economics and production, we create more food and have a better life; and from that we have a chance to think about what's right and what's wrong. Our culture and our civilization develop from that.

Animal life is brutal; for example when a male lion wins the due with the current male in the pride it will take the pride and kill all the cubs so it can reproduce. Praying mantis eats it prays alive (and it attacks bird, cat, snake, mouse); also female praying mantis is famous for eating their mate after (or even during) the mating. Some male animal attack other males at the reproductive organs at the mating session.

You can argue that the civilization did many wrongs to the world; but without that we don't even know what is right and what is wrong - and we could not change if we have no idea of rightness. Without civilization who can guarantee that we could do better?

I believe with this type of question, religion and the personal belief in higher values could help.

Vietnam is a beautiful country.

(Non-human) animal life is brutal without question, what is more questionable is if they suffer anything close to the level of deep psychological problems modern humans encounter. Generally animals seem to live integrated, 'flowing with the dao' type lives, which end in an agonising, although relatively short, death. There are exceptions.

I could be wrong about the above- but anyway, our hunter gatherer ancestors were not lions - even though a few of them were getting eaten by lions. There is no doubt hunter gatherers did experience painful experiences (although they may well have had a much healthier perspective on it than us). Their painful experiences in and of themselves mean nothing. Painful things happen, that's life- for our ancestors and for us.

I believe that a small portion of religions and higher values are an attempt to get back something we have lost in terms of our wild nature. The Garden Of Eden may be a subconscious metaphor for pre-agricultural society. Bear in mind bible written so long ago- who knows what vestigal primordial things were going on in peoples' brains.

@BennyWalks, hang on until the pandemic is over. We are all - and I include "civilization" in this - are trying to do the best we can with what we have, where we are. If you are training as most of us here are training, you are less "dysfunctional" and better prepared for anything life may throw at you than the overwhelming majority of your friends, neighbors and colleagues. And that ain't nothin'.

-S-

Very kind words, my respect to you for that.

In my country the government has deliberately kept quiet about measures that could have saved countless lives related to COVID (how many is hard to say since the figures may well be inflated anyway). And there are many that have to gain from a pandemic continuing ad infinitum - big business (including from the failure of small businesses), scientific advisory groups whose employ is specifically in managing the pandemic, and polticians who explicitly talk about using current events as an opportunity to re-shape society. So we'll see what happens. Perhaps in 20 years education minister Commander Lizzo will introduce mandatory estrogen laced doughnuts in school meals, whilst those who question the new measures for the Baroque Neo-Classical Strain of COVID will be sent to compulsary re-education camps and forced to watch hardcore pornography on the new Amazon Kindle. So we'll see what happens re the pandemic being 'over'

 

[Mirek]

It's got nothing to do with relative abilities. I simply see wildlife as being intrinsically and of itself BETTER than domesticated life. And I'm convinced that regardless of the accuracy of this view, it is at least in part a sign of something healthy emerging within me.

Also it's arguable that early homo sapiens were in some ways far more mentally capable than us.

Even from an article attempting to be critical of this widespread biological view: 'This is true, but it is false to suppose that evolution must always select for intelligence. Domesticated animals have generally smaller brains than their wild ancestors precisely because they no longer need to make so many decisions. Yet they are also far more numerous and successful. All evolution cares about is how many of your grandchildren survive. It's not picky about how and why this happens.' Why it's unlikely we are more stupid than our hunter-gatherer ancestors | Andrew Brown [misleading title]

Well, you see something as intrinsically better and think this very thought as justification of your opinion. There is nothing to discuss.

This might be true but those are intraspecies differences and their changes over the time. Still, an average homo spaiens
is better off then smartest lion or whatever.

 

[bluejeff]

Very complex topic....

I do realize that there is a TON of nuance and detail that could be gone into here, however:

Very broadly speaking, agriculture came before money and was tied to it in many ways. This led to power structure(s) which have led over time to multitudes of inhumane treatment of the masses by those holding the majority of the power.

Does this mean agriculture is inherently bad? I don't think so. But it is tied to power structures. Power structures DO influence our quality of life.

I will say that big-agriculture has a lot of destructive practices and is also tied to the government in the US....

 

[banzaiengr]

the genocide of wildlife

Not sure exactly what the meaning of this would be. If it is hunting I will give you my two cents. As Donnie Vincent says, "somewhere in your DNA your ancestors were hunters. Otherwise you wouldn't be here.

As far as the connection between the hunter and wildlife, hunters put more money into wildlife conservation, land preservation, and the overall ecology system than another group. Most of this comes from license fees but another good portion of it comes with the special sales tax that is added to any form of hunting equipment.

Many forms of wildlife wouldn't be here today if it weren't for hunters. First of all, folks have a fear of predators. Think of the reaction if it was found that a wolf was rooming your neighbor hood. Without predators how will the population of deer for instance be balanced. It's balanced by hunters. Otherwise there becomes overpopulation which leads to sickness in the heard, lack of resources for the herd like cover, water, and feed. In the early 20th century America's deer herd was almost depleted. Hunters were the ones who brought it back.

factory farm

I have many times wondered, just what is a factory farm? Is it a feed lot full of cattle being fattened for the market? Is it the confinement hog operation that runs pigs for market through it like widgets? I've worked at both and can tell you that without these food costs would be much more than they are in the U.S. Take that as you like.

I've lived from the midwest, to the mountain west, to the upper midwest and can tell you that there are many more family farms than cooperate farms. Unfortunately that is changing quickly. Where I live in Wisconsin we loses more family farms than any other state. These family farms produce grain for the market, raise livestock for the market and to sell locally, and whether you want to believe this or not they steward the land because that's where their living comes from.

Many times I hear about the overuse of fertilizers. Let me ask you, why would someone apply more fertilizer to their crops than needed if that is taking away from their bottom line. This problem has more to do with the urbanite wanting a pretty lawn or golf course who wants what they perceive as a pristine environment.

The small piece of land I own provides both organic meat and vegetables for my wife and I. I provide shelter, water, and food for many forms of wildlife. Some of this wildlife is taken by the pack of over 100 wolves who call the area home.

Before criticizing I would offer to you to find a local farmer who offers good clean meat or vegetables. Go out to his farm and buy some. Then ask him to show you around if he has time. (he probably doesn't because most farmers put in more work in a day than most others do in a week).

 

[LukeV]

Out on the African savanna I witnessed a wild dog kill. The dogs harried a wildebeest to exhaustion then ripped into it. The wildebeest put up a fight - everything on the savanna dies hard. A few days earlier I'd heard some hunters discussing how they'd pursued a buffalo into difficult terrain. It seems the buffalo had survived a volley of shots but made it away, badly wounded. They had to track it by blood and gore some distance, before putting it out of its misery. Back in Australia socially media exploded when some indigenous guys were filmed bashing a wombat to death by throwing stones. Apparently a traditional method of hunting permitted to them under heritage law. I can only imagine what being bashed to death by stones must feel like. Meanwhile our highly regulated livestock farmers experience the visits of inspectors, the focus of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty and a daily deluge of criticism from city folk for their supposedly inhumane farming practices. Give me agriculture any day!

 

[North Coast Miller]

...the genocide of wildlife

I believe he's referring to widespread extinction/die offs/dwindling diversity, due to habitat loss for land clearing, over harvesting of bush meat in some countries, environmental pollution due to certain classes of pesticides and fertilizers.

On a personal note I am grateful for modern ag. The most damaging aspects of modern life have more to do with power generation than agricultural cultivation. There is no doubt the two in combination have allowed for a huge increase in human population.
Whether the erradication of hunter/gatherer lifestyle has rendered life less meaningful is another question entirely. Probably yes, in some respects. Almost certainly not in others.

 

[bluejeff]

These family farms produce grain for the market, raise livestock for the market and to sell locally, and whether you want to believe this or not they steward the land because that's where their living comes from.

find a local farmer who offers good clean meat or vegetables. Go out to his farm and buy some. Then ask him to show you around if he has time.

This +100%

I originally wrote an overly-long post about this but you summed it up. Centralizing our agriculture system seems to be a very un-wise move. Huge monocropping is resulting in detroyed topsoil....which helps to sequester carbon....

 

[Hung]

Krishna, the Lord of senses, spoke, as if he were smiling, to him (Arjuna), standing aggrieved between the armies, these words:
"You are grieving over those who should not be grieved for at all. For, the spiritually wise grieve not either over the living or the dead."
-Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2, versus 10-11

This book helps me a lot during my hard time in life. Hope that it could do the same for you.

 

[BennyWalks]

Krishna, the Lord of senses, spoke, as if he were smiling, to him (Arjuna), standing aggrieved between the armies, these words:
"You are grieving over those who should not be grieved for at all. For, the spiritually wise grieve not either over the living or the dead."
-Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 2, versus 10-11

This book helps me a lot during my hard time in life. Hope that it could do the same for you.

Is there a particular version you would recommend in English? I know that there are different translations, some with accompanying commentaries.

 

[silveraw]

Thomas Hobbes wrote that the natural state of man was "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" and "man at war with every other man".

I don't think the concept of happiness, contentment, depression, etc. has a place in that world. For by necessity it strips any and all deeper meaning from life. It becomes just meat trying to eat other meat and trying to make more meat. It is just life making life because that is what life does.

If you are yearning for that type of world, I'd highly recommend picking up a copy of "Mans Search for Meaning". Viktor Frankl finds that in a "nasty brutish and short" type of life many of his fellow prisoners became vacant and hopeless. They just went through the motions of living until they died. Then ones that survived were the ones that found meaning in their life. Something above and beyond just eating that next meal and breathing that next breath.

I think the whole idea of selling people on the "natural state" for purposes of fulfillment are just to fill some people's pockets. When I lived in Austin TX there were a lot of those guys. They would sell rock mats to people who lived next to a dry creekbed, telling them that it would help them connect with the earth so they would be happier. Or selling them special saunas so that it would mimic the sunshine that was outside their door. My personal favorite was people who would sell people on the importance of hunting your own food and eating "paleo" meats and then sell people a butcher box type thing with "wild" game in it. I knew people who slept on special rock mats to mimic a cave, yet had never spent a single night out doors.

There just isn't really any substance to the idea beyond some nostalgia for time gone bye. Humans have always used technology to survive, and we always will.

 

[LukeV]

Thomas Hobbes wrote that the natural state of man was "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short" and "man at war with every other man".

I don't think the concept of happiness, contentment, depression, etc. has a place in that world. For by necessity it strips any and all deeper meaning from life. It becomes just meat trying to eat other meat and trying to make more meat. It is just life making life because that is what life does.

If you are yearning for that type of world, I'd highly recommend picking up a copy of "Mans Search for Meaning". Viktor Frankl finds that in a "nasty brutish and short" type of life many of his fellow prisoners became vacant and hopeless. They just went through the motions of living until they died. Then ones that survived were the ones that found meaning in their life. Something above and beyond just eating that next meal and breathing that next breath.

I think the whole idea of selling people on the "natural state" for purposes of fulfillment are just to fill some people's pockets. When I lived in Austin TX there were a lot of those guys. They would sell rock mats to people who lived next to a dry creekbed, telling them that it would help them connect with the earth so they would be happier. Or selling them special saunas so that it would mimic the sunshine that was outside their door. My personal favorite was people who would sell people on the importance of hunting your own food and eating "paleo" meats and then sell people a butcher box type thing with "wild" game in it. I knew people who slept on special rock mats to mimic a cave, yet had never spent a single night out doors.

There just isn't really any substance to the idea beyond some nostalgia for time gone bye. Humans have always used technology to survive, and we always will.

I don't think there are many people who would prefer to have lived 100 years ago, let alone 10000 years ago. Personally, I believe humankind's great leap forward started with the inventions of deodorant and toilet paper

 

[offwidth]

I don't think there are many people who would prefer to have lived 100 years ago, let alone 10000 years ago. Personally, I believe humankind's great leap forward started with the inventions of deodorant and toilet paper

1857 (ish) for the first commonly and commercially available toilet paper...

 

[BennyWalks]

There are 'toy' dogs, bred for the ultra rich, who are in constant pain their entire lives due to their bone structure being inadequate to support their body. Many similar cases eg French Bulldogs who tend to get breathing issues. If you took them and threw them into the life of a wolf, they'd find it horrific I'm guessing. Should they therefore be greatful that they have been bred into existence? After all they get to enjoy all this luxury.

Similar case for the modern human. You won't see me going to live in a cave any time soon.

I'm a French Bulldog in a way- mentally and physically dysfunctional, I would have died in infancy in hunter gatherer times I expect. Bad news for me but good news for the overall level of suffering extant in the species, and excellent news for ecosystems which aren't equipped for agriculture and industry supported mass breeding of a species.

Incidentally chimpanzees sometimes hunt their prey (smaller monkeys) into extinction.

Animal life is brutish but so is human life, with added extras. Humans are the only species I'm aware of where parents will sell their own children to paedophiles. Actually some even enslave other species in specially designed brothels.

The difference being, that that is not the whole story with humans. We have great art and what have you. Plus in some spiritual practices, the opportunity to transcend suffering...most will never reach the high levels though. In large part it could be argued that spiritual practices such as Buddhism largely represent an attempt to get back what we lost when we developed the capacity and inclination to befuddle and torture ourselves by adding narratives to our direct experience of reality.

Anyway I'm not constructing an argument, just throwing thoughts out there.

 

[silveraw]

Honestly I don’t feel comfortable responding. It sounds like you are in a very dark place and should consider reaching out to a professional.

I can recommend the talk space app as I’ve used it and liked it a lot.