@305pelusa, I will keep suggesting you go. The course is less than expensive than the certification.
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Bodyweight Al Kavadlo- Get strong
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Let's reiterate @Pavel Macek's point - principles can be applied to progressions, enabling progress across not only various progrssions but across various movements and different exercise modalities.
My favorite personal example is my pull-ups going from 2 to 12 with no pullup training, only deadlifting and pressing. Principles-based practice has tremendous carryover.
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My favorite personal example is my pull-ups going from 2 to 12 with no pullup training, only deadlifting and pressing. Principles-based practice has tremendous carryover.
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Kettlebelephant
Level 6 Valued Member
That's the point. I already said that in an earlier post above, you need to combine them.
If someone would come to me and ask "I want to start training with calisthenics, what should I do?" I'd tell them to go to a SFB course or cert and then buy the three book from Al Kavadlo and go through his progressions while applying the principles from the SFB course/cert.
Unfortunatly the costs and availability (at least outside of the US) for courses/certs highly limit the option to attend (I have the same problem as you @305pelusa).
In my opinion (and I say this without attending any course/cert besides a 1-day RKC course) principles can only be taught to a certain degree using books or DVDs. To fully grasp and understand them you need to be taught in person. That's where the courses/certs come in.
The progressions on the other hand can be learned by books only.
That's why if you would ask me "I want to start training with calithenics, BUT my resources (money, time to travel etc.) are limited, what should I do?" I'd answer to just get Kavadlos books, because they'll get you plenty strong without you knowing about things like active negatives or corkscrewing.
Edit:
I just wanted to say that I love this forum a lot. It's really the best strength & conditioning forum out there and I highly respect it's contributing members, but sometimes things like the ones happening in this thread get on my nerves and I can understand e.g. @305pelusa for reacting the way he did earlier.
@malleus wanted to know whether or not Get Strong is a good book about calisthenics. Then as early as the third overall post in the thread, people come in and mention the SF principles, the SFB and Pavels books without really contributing anything to the actual topic which is the book Get Strong.
This is like someone asking your opinion about the new Mercedes and without saying anything about the Mercedes you start telling him how amazing the BMW is...
I know we're on the StrongFirst forum and therefore you can expect a bit of bias and a bit of advertising, but it happens so frequently that I can understand why people refer to the organisation as kind of cult.
Rant over...
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Sergej
Level 3 Valued Member
@Pavel Macek:
you were talking about secrets being revealed at the SFB Course.
but are those really "secrets", or maybe good summary of knowledge wich existed a long time in diffrent strenght related areas?
it sounds a bit mystic...
you were talking about secrets being revealed at the SFB Course.
but are those really "secrets", or maybe good summary of knowledge wich existed a long time in diffrent strenght related areas?
it sounds a bit mystic...
305pelusa
Level 6 Valued Member
That's about right. I wouldn't call it a "poor man's" system. Plenty of people who have the money, still go with calisthenics. But I think you have the right idea. We're on the same page here
I think it could be written. They have a fan base here that'd buy it. However, I associate Pavel and SF with KBs. Yeah they might have alternative programs with PTTP and TNW, but the core really is the KB.
But you are right that stuff Al, GMB, etc puts out would make it hard for the book to sell outside of SF. At least, that's what it seems to me.
@Karen Smith can probably tell you if it's in the works or not.
MikeMoran
Level 6 Valued Member
I picked up GET STRONG. I though it was most excellent, especially for BEGINNERS to BW training. It has the exercises and progressions for 4x4 week blocks. I you can already nail a 1A1L Push Up and Pistols than you should move onto OVERCOMING GRAVITY or a more advanced book.
I work part time at a gym as a trainer and the tips and progressions in GET STRONG are good for clients and some for me too.
I work part time at a gym as a trainer and the tips and progressions in GET STRONG are good for clients and some for me too.
malleus
Level 5 Valued Member
Thank you, @Kettlebelephant!That's the point. I already said that in an earlier post above, you need to combine them.
If someone would come to me and ask "I want to start training with calisthenics, what should I do?" I'd tell them to go to a SFB course or cert and then buy the three book from Al Kavadlo and go through his progressions while applying the principles from the SFB course/cert.
Unfortunatly the costs and availability (at least outside of the US) for courses/certs highly limit the option to attend (I have the same problem as you @305pelusa).
In my opinion (and I say this without attending any course/cert besides a 1-day RKC course) principles can only be taught to a certain degree using books or DVDs. To fully grasp and understand them you need to be taught in person. That's where the courses/certs come in.
The progressions on the other hand can be learned by books only.
That's why if you would ask me "I want to start training with calithenics, BUT my resources (money, time to travel etc.) are limited, what should I do?" I'd answer to just get Kavadlos books, because they'll get you plenty strong without you knowing about things like active negatives or corkscrewing.
Edit:
I just wanted to say that I love this forum a lot. It's really the best strength & conditioning forum out there and I highly respect it's contributing members, but sometimes things like the ones happening in this thread get on my nerves and I can understand e.g. @305pelusa for reacting the way he did earlier.
@malleus wanted to know whether or not Get Strong is a good book about calisthenics. Then as early as the third overall post in the thread, people come in and mention the SF principles, the SFB and Pavels books without really contributing anything to the actual topic which is the book Get Strong.
This is like someone asking your opinion about the new Mercedes and without saying anything about the Mercedes you start telling him how amazing the BMW is...
I know we're on the StrongFirst forum and therefore you can expect a bit of bias and a bit of advertising, but it happens so frequently that I can understand why people refer to the organisation as kind of cult.
Rant over...
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Sorry, I don't really mean "poor man", as you can probably guess, but rather that callisthenists don't feel too impressed with expensive fancy artificial contraptions or machines. I think a less "supported" form of weight training is more rugged and stronger in many ways. But at the same time I think stubbornly choosing not to handle any weight outside your own is biased and therefore wrong. Even if you've just got a heavy bucket of water, why not at least carry it around for training purposes? I think it's important to know how to exercise with nothing but your own bodyweight, but a craftsman should use all the tools at his disposal if they are useful to the project at hand, which in this case is to get stronger. I've got kettlebells at home, so I'm not going to lock them away ever.That's about right. I wouldn't call it a "poor man's" system. Plenty of people who have the money, still go with calisthenics. But I think you have the right idea. We're on the same page here
I think it could be written. They have a fan base here that'd buy it. However, I associate Pavel and SF with KBs. Yeah they might have alternative programs with PTTP and TNW, but the core really is the KB.
But you are right that stuff Al, GMB, etc puts out would make it hard for the book to sell outside of SF. At least, that's what it seems to me.
@Karen Smith can probably tell you if it's in the works or not.
I'm very happy with the book. It isn't just "the basics done stronger" in the tradition of "Convict Conditioning", but some pretty clever stuff with some important points of wisdom in it that I'm taking to heart, especially this one:
Keep doing the easier exercises along with the harder ones. - I guess this is to mix conditioning with absolute strength.
I can do sets of 5 one arm pushups quite proficiently and of course I can do sets of 1 OAOLPUs too (therefore). Still, I think the archer pushups are still valid for me. As for squatting, the archer squats aren't bad for me since I am not at the full pistol stage yet (not that I've tried very hard though, hahaha!) Still, they're pretty easy for me - although they're good for martial arts mobility I think. However, considering the archer squats, and other "lower body" type moves in "Get Strong", my S&S training has given me a lot of skills in this area. TGUs I think blow the candlesticks out of the water and give the strength for a lot of the other lower body moves.
Of the 11 moves in the highest level of Al's programme, I can do 5 of them already according to the plan (phase 4 week 4), 1 more I can do but not the number of reps he's got, 5 moves I cannot do properly at all: archer pull up, handstand pushup, toes to bar leg raise, hover lunge, one leg squat.
So, this is an indication of what S&S with one arm pushups from NW can give you in terms of Al's system.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I didn't know that. Is there a webpage I could look at about this?
305pelusa
Level 6 Valued Member
StrongFirst Bodyweight Course Schedule
Courses are just one day but at 300 bucks, they're much more affordable. I imagine this would be better than the SFB for people like us Kozushi, since I imagine the SFB is also geared towards effective coaching and group class programming, which might not be as relevant to us.
@305pelusa
I have done the stretching course for few moths, before I switched to my own routine. I like the exercise selection, but it is mostly just passive stretching. I like to mix various modes of stretching we use at Flexible Steel, using the 3S principles, contrast breathing, various modes of PNF, PMF stretching, etc.
I could not agree more with Emerson:
“As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.”
And that is the whole point. It applies both to stretching and bodyweight strength training we are discussing here. That is what Pavel said at our SFB Cert - although SFB covers many great progressions, he has recommended to implement any useful progression you can find anywhere - and apply all the principles learned at SFB to it.
As for other GB stuff, I use basically all drills from the Fundamentals - most of them I have already used before I purchased the course. Results? Excellent rehab/rehab program, very well selected exercises. I have also the Foundation program, but so far I am using just few selected drills from it. My main program is S&S, the goal is still the goal. Once I finish it I may do a bodyweight program, but I will probably do a bent press/snatch program for a while, and a barbell program after that, I don't know yet.
I have done the stretching course for few moths, before I switched to my own routine. I like the exercise selection, but it is mostly just passive stretching. I like to mix various modes of stretching we use at Flexible Steel, using the 3S principles, contrast breathing, various modes of PNF, PMF stretching, etc.
I could not agree more with Emerson:
“As to methods there may be a million and then some, but principles are few. The man who grasps principles can successfully select his own methods. The man who tries methods, ignoring principles, is sure to have trouble.”
And that is the whole point. It applies both to stretching and bodyweight strength training we are discussing here. That is what Pavel said at our SFB Cert - although SFB covers many great progressions, he has recommended to implement any useful progression you can find anywhere - and apply all the principles learned at SFB to it.
As for other GB stuff, I use basically all drills from the Fundamentals - most of them I have already used before I purchased the course. Results? Excellent rehab/rehab program, very well selected exercises. I have also the Foundation program, but so far I am using just few selected drills from it. My main program is S&S, the goal is still the goal. Once I finish it I may do a bodyweight program, but I will probably do a bent press/snatch program for a while, and a barbell program after that, I don't know yet.
@Sergej SFB teaches "secrets" from many, many disciplines - from powerlifting, gymnastics, arm wrestling, martial arts, Yoga, etc. And of course Pavel, as a true gentleman, always gives credit to the source.
They are thoroughly analysed, deconstructed and put together again for the purpose of safer and stronger performance (in any exercise, not just those taught at SFB), and any implement (not just bodyweight).
Power tilt, scissor squeeze, corkscrew, chaining, bracing, wedge, power breathing, irradiation, active negative, contrast method, ACE method, etc. etc. - I am still truly amazed by all the stuff that is taught at SFB Courses and Certs.
As a martial artist, I was involved in bodyweight strength training for years. when I got The Naked Warrior, I skipped all the principles, just went through the progressions, and failed. After that, I read the book from cover to cover, took a lot of notes - and did pistols and one-arm one-leg pushups in 3 days.
So yes, to me the stuff taught at SFB (The Naked Warrior 2.0) are "secrets" indeed. A lot of the stuff I have learned in China and Hong Kong as a part of Hard Qigong, but as I said before, it has never occurred to me I could apply these principles to strength training and get instantly stronger.
Summary: Yes, I am huge SFB fan. I am currently working on a old-school dumbbell program, Hardstyle principle based program. One mind, any weapon.
They are thoroughly analysed, deconstructed and put together again for the purpose of safer and stronger performance (in any exercise, not just those taught at SFB), and any implement (not just bodyweight).
Power tilt, scissor squeeze, corkscrew, chaining, bracing, wedge, power breathing, irradiation, active negative, contrast method, ACE method, etc. etc. - I am still truly amazed by all the stuff that is taught at SFB Courses and Certs.
As a martial artist, I was involved in bodyweight strength training for years. when I got The Naked Warrior, I skipped all the principles, just went through the progressions, and failed. After that, I read the book from cover to cover, took a lot of notes - and did pistols and one-arm one-leg pushups in 3 days.
So yes, to me the stuff taught at SFB (The Naked Warrior 2.0) are "secrets" indeed. A lot of the stuff I have learned in China and Hong Kong as a part of Hard Qigong, but as I said before, it has never occurred to me I could apply these principles to strength training and get instantly stronger.
Summary: Yes, I am huge SFB fan. I am currently working on a old-school dumbbell program, Hardstyle principle based program. One mind, any weapon.
Carl
Level 6 Valued Member
Many ways work.
For strength calisthenics (my preferred modality), my first stops are Pavel/Strong First and the Kavadlo brothers for top quality information.
There are differences in approach but also similarities (get the job done, proven track record, stripped down to basics, field tested, reduce the unnecessary).
As per Steve's suggestion, I definitely look forward to taking the SFB course. I'm sure the course materials alone are a goldmine of information.
For strength calisthenics (my preferred modality), my first stops are Pavel/Strong First and the Kavadlo brothers for top quality information.
There are differences in approach but also similarities (get the job done, proven track record, stripped down to basics, field tested, reduce the unnecessary).
As per Steve's suggestion, I definitely look forward to taking the SFB course. I'm sure the course materials alone are a goldmine of information.
Norcoaster
Level 2 Valued Member
Echo the comments on gymnastic bodies, did not find that program useful. Liking the discussion here.....
Steve W.
Level 8 Valued Member
Interestingly (at least to me), this quotation is commonly attributed to "Emerson," and often explicitly to "Ralph Waldo Emerson." However, Ralph Waldo Emerson never wrote or said it. It most likely originates with a management consultant and efficiency expert of the early 1900s named Harrington Emerson.
The Man Who Tries Methods, Ignoring Principles, Is Sure to Have Trouble | Quote Investigator
Sergej
Level 3 Valued Member
@Pavel Macek
Thank you for the response!
is there any chance, that some of the more recent secrets will be published or presented online?
Maybe just one or two?
And does rope climbing play a role in the SF-Bodyweight world?
Thank you for the response!
is there any chance, that some of the more recent secrets will be published or presented online?
Maybe just one or two?
And does rope climbing play a role in the SF-Bodyweight world?
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
Okay, but something I personally don't quite understand is switching programmes. If you stop doing S&S don't you lose the S&S strength??? Why achieve a goal just to let it slip later? Is it because the other stuff takes you farther?
With S&S I'm finding that my body can handle it a lot better now than before so it doesn't take much out of me leaving me free to do heavy bodyweight moves at another time of day, even just 30 minutes later. This is having a MAJOR impact on my combat sports.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I guess I am spoiled because I came to Pavel's work before anything else, so I've absorbed these "secrets" early and they're second nature now. I tense myself up like a blowfish and knock off 5X5 one arm pushups, for instance. Just think of the carry over skills this stuff brings to martial arts fighting!!!
Pavel M., I think a good dumbbell programme based on SF principles would be very well received indeed. Lots of people have them lying around already in their homes. Some think kettlebells are too specifically designed and are even dangerous. My wife will use dumbbells for example but tried and hates kettlebells.
305pelusa
Level 6 Valued Member
We're in complete agreement here..
Pavel with all due respect, it doesn't sound to me like you are doing the programs. Doing Foundation means doing Foundation. It means starting at the first exercise in all 7 progressions, following the Mastery Templates, the weekly schedule. And moving up only once you meet certain standards. Doing the Stretch routines means doing his actual 1 hour follow-along stretch routine. A rather miserable experience with no progress.
If you did that, I apologize for assuming you didn't. And I'd love to hear to what level you reached (did you pass RC/PE6? sPL/PE1>iM?achieve a pancake and split as promised? sounds like you did the stretch courses as shown for some time). Not trying to be rude (though I know I sound like a condescending prick), I am genuinely curious because I personally made little to no progress even though I worked extremely hard and really wanted to achieve the 7 skills.
Thank you for mentioning these. It was what I was wondering. I agree SFB seems much more principle based than other certifications. I don't care about the relative argument of what's better. But it is definitely the case.
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