Bodyweight Al Kavadlo- Get strong

[Kozushi]

Many ways work.

For strength calisthenics (my preferred modality), my first stops are Pavel/Strong First and the Kavadlo brothers for top quality information.

There are differences in approach but also similarities (get the job done, proven track record, stripped down to basics, field tested, reduce the unnecessary).

As per Steve's suggestion, I definitely look forward to taking the SFB course. I'm sure the course materials alone are a goldmine of information.

Between Pavel and Kavadlo the main difference is that with Pavel you take the hardest core stuff and just do it, whereas with Kavadlo you keep doing the easier stuff along side the harder core stuff. So, for instance, in Pavel's theory you do 5X5 one arm pushups (ideally one arm one leg pushups and then you can stop doing the one arm pushups altogether.) In Kavadlo's theory, you do regular pushups, archer pushups, one arm pushups, all in the same workout! Probably in Pavel's thinking the easier stuff would tire you out for the harder stuff (?) whereas in Kavadlo's thinking every exercise has its own charms and variety is better for overall mobility and conditioning.

I've got the practical application of all this stuff to consider for my martial arts fighting, and this alters things further for me.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

@Kozushi
Pavels work is on the max. strength/max. power side of things, hence the name StrongFirst. Kavadlo and really most of the "playground calisthenics" guys approach it more from the strength-endurance side with a bit of max. strength (e.g. at some point you need to introduce a more difficult variation to make progress).
You need both. You need a certain amount of max or absolute strength to perform well. The amount of absolute strength varies from person to person e.g. a SWAT breacher certainly needs a lot more absolute strength than a stay-at-home mom who just wants to be healthy and live life without many limitations.
You need to spend time on strength-endurance tough. Anyone who's ever climbed up a huge amount of stairs (100, 200 or more) knows the burning in the quads from the muscular exhaustion.
Increasing your squat from 1xBW to 1.5xBW, from 1.5xBW to 2xBW, from 3xBW to 4xBW or in your specific case increasing your S&S from 40Kg to the 48Kg won't help you to not experience that burning. Increasing your endurance with a lot of running won't help either. You need to do something like high rep (15-20+ reps per set) lunges, step ups or squats to be able to climb such stairs without the burning/muscular exhaustion.
(Of course the best training would be climbing stairs, but this is just an example of what you need to do in your training that carries over to life, your profession or sport)
Increasing your absolute strength is a very good goal, but spend some on your training time on converting the max. strength into strength endurance. This is where e.g. the works of Kavadlo would be a good choice.

 

[Kozushi]

@Kozushi
Pavels work is on the max. strength/max. power side of things, hence the name StrongFirst. Kavadlo and really most of the "playground calisthenics" guys approach it more from the strength-endurance side with a bit of max. strength (e.g. at some point you need to introduce a more difficult variation to make progress).
You need both. You need a certain amount of max or absolute strength to perform well. The amount of absolute strength varies from person to person e.g. a SWAT breacher certainly needs a lot more absolute strength than a stay-at-home mom who just wants to be healthy and live life without many limitations.
You need to spend time on strength-endurance tough. Anyone who's ever climbed up a huge amount of stairs (100, 200 or more) knows the burning in the quads from the muscular exhaustion.
Increasing your squat from 1xBW to 1.5xBW, from 1.5xBW to 2xBW, from 3xBW to 4xBW or in your specific case increasing your S&S from 40Kg to the 48Kg won't help you to not experience that burning. Increasing your endurance with a lot of running won't help either. You need to do something like high rep (15-20+ reps per set) lunges, step ups or squats to be able to climb such stairs without the burning/muscular exhaustion.
(Of course the best training would be climbing stairs, but this is just an example of what you need to do in your training that carries over to life, your profession or sport)
Increasing your absolute strength is a very good goal, but spend some on your training time on converting the max. strength into strength endurance. This is where e.g. the works of Kavadlo would be a good choice.

Yes. I've ordered his "Street Workout" book which goes past the "Get Strong" one in its progressions. I'm definitely past almost half of the exercises in the "Get Strong" book in terms of absolute strength, so I'll go past them but I'll keep them for the strength-endurance conditioning value.

 

[Steve Freides]

In our principles-based approach, we continue to "polish the chrome" by always keeping our eyes and minds open for things that we can do better. The principles are unchanging but the methods can and do change over time, based on what we learn from observing our students.

-S-

 

[Anna C]

Interesting thread... just picking out a couple of neat things to chime in with.

If you stop doing S&S don't you lose the S&S strength??? Why achieve a goal just to let it slip later? Is it because the other stuff takes you farther?

In my experience, yes and no. Some elements to degrade a bit, yes. I have been consistent with my training and covered a lot of ground since the days when I was doing S&S consistently. This week I did some heavy 1H swings and found that I can't swing the 32kg as hard as I could a year ago. My grip isn't quite strong enough to keep up with the power that my hips can swing. But the 28kg, yes, everything's still good. It wouldn't take much to get back to the 32kg at the same level. Same with get-ups; at one time I could do 10 with the 32kg in 15 min or so. Today I can do 1, maybe 2 or 3 on a strong day, need longer rest too. But I could get back there with a month or so of heavy get-up training. Even though I'm not at a previous S&S level, I feel like I'm at a higher level overall. I have increased my capacity in related areas such as lats, abs, leg strength, skill, quickness, power... so if I went back to S&S w/ 32kg it would be a little different, would come together better this time around.

I think of it like keeping air-filled balloons afloat... each new skill is like launching another balloon, to start with you put all your effort into keeping one afloat by continuously tapping it back up, but then you try something else (launch another), then another, and another... they do start to fall, but you just go tap them back up every so often, it actually gets easier the more you launch. They all get lighter, go up higher with each tap, and stay afloat longer.

Increasing your squat from 1xBW to 1.5xBW, from 1.5xBW to 2xBW, from 3xBW to 4xBW or in your specific case increasing your S&S from 40Kg to the 48Kg won't help you to not experience that burning. Increasing your endurance with a lot of running won't help either. You need to do something like high rep (15-20+ reps per set) lunges, step ups or squats to be able to climb such stairs without the burning/muscular exhaustion.

Interesting line of thought. I agree with you to a point, but I do think that both strength and endurance would help somewhat. Particularly the running. Increasing the capacity of the aerobic system and the slow twitch fibers helps use up the lactate that is produced with a high rep effort. The burn doesn't happen as quickly, and your body has a better capacity to buffer it.

As far as strength, if your legs are so strong that steps are just "easy", less lactate produced there too, I think. Not sure what the mechanism is, but I think there's something going on with strength capacity.

But I do agree, you have to train at or near the burn to get better at it. I equate it to bike riding, riding right at lactate threshold (LT)... the legs burn when you start doing it, and it's hard to do... but if you train here or just under this level for intervals, they burn less and you get better at riding at that level. The LT rises, you can put out more power (and higher HR) for sustained periods.

 

[Kozushi]

Interesting thread... just picking out a couple of neat things to chime in with.



In my experience, yes and no. Some elements to degrade a bit, yes. I have been consistent with my training and covered a lot of ground since the days when I was doing S&S consistently. This week I did some heavy 1H swings and found that I can't swing the 32kg as hard as I could a year ago. My grip isn't quite strong enough to keep up with the power that my hips can swing. But the 28kg, yes, everything's still good. It wouldn't take much to get back to the 32kg at the same level. Same with get-ups; at one time I could do 10 with the 32kg in 15 min or so. Today I can do 1, maybe 2 or 3 on a strong day, need longer rest too. But I could get back there with a month or so of heavy get-up training. Even though I'm not at a previous S&S level, I feel like I'm at a higher level overall. I have increased my capacity in related areas such as lats, abs, leg strength, skill, quickness, power... so if I went back to S&S w/ 32kg it would be a little different, would come together better this time around.

I think of it like keeping air-filled balloons afloat... each new skill is like launching another balloon, to start with you put all your effort into keeping one afloat by continuously tapping it back up, but then you try something else (launch another), then another, and another... they do start to fall, but you just go tap them back up every so often, it actually gets easier the more you launch. They all get lighter, go up higher with each tap, and stay afloat longer.



Interesting line of thought. I agree with you to a point, but I do think that both strength and endurance would help somewhat. Particularly the running. Increasing the capacity of the aerobic system and the slow twitch fibers helps use up the lactate that is produced with a high rep effort. The burn doesn't happen as quickly, and your body has a better capacity to buffer it.

As far as strength, if your legs are so strong that steps are just "easy", less lactate produced there too, I think. Not sure what the mechanism is, but I think there's something going on with strength capacity.

But I do agree, you have to train at or near the burn to get better at it. I equate it to bike riding, riding right at lactate threshold (LT)... the legs burn when you start doing it, and it's hard to do... but if you train here or just under this level for intervals, they burn less and you get better at riding at that level. The LT rises, you can put out more power (and higher HR) for sustained periods.

Now that I have restarted judo (for those interested I'm in BJJ also) seriously, I have to work around that and for that. I'm getting a lot of strength from the training itself which is a lot more intense than you might imagine - and you don't get to decide when to rest and restart because your opponent is making those decisions for you, hahaha! To be honest, anything "cardio" related is kind of unnecessary for me these days because of judo, which fact has made me take a renewed interest in "pure strength" moves like chinups, dips, one arm one leg pushups, and some squats (like the pistol and the archer squats.) There are things that S&S does that can't be replicated with other moves when it comes to training for fighting, I think. However, there are things about one arm pushups and chinups that cannot be achieved through S&S that are also important for fighting. Like I wrote somewhere else, S&S is loading 40kg on me, but chinups load 50kg per arm, and one arm pushups load 70kg per arm!!!

 

[Pavel Macek]

@Pavel Macek
Thank you for the response!

is there any chance, that some of the more recent secrets will be published or presented online?
Maybe just one or two?

And does rope climbing play a role in the SF-Bodyweight world?

@Sergej , check out The Naked Warrior and Hardstyle Abs, as well as other Pavel's works (such as PTTP).

As for for climbing, it is not taught at SFB Cert, but I remember it was recommended on many occasions. My gym unfortunately has very low ceilings, otherwise we would certainly install the ropes there.

 

[Pavel Macek]

Okay, but something I personally don't quite understand is switching programmes. If you stop doing S&S don't you lose the S&S strength??? Why achieve a goal just to let it slip later? Is it because the other stuff takes you farther?

With S&S I'm finding that my body can handle it a lot better now than before so it doesn't take much out of me leaving me free to do heavy bodyweight moves at another time of day, even just 30 minutes later. This is having a MAJOR impact on my combat sports.

@Kozushi , the S&S lifts will go down a bit, but I will get stronger using other lifts/programs/tools. I am not a specialist - I am interested more in all-round strength. I will cross the river when I come to it.

 

[Pavel Macek]

I guess I am spoiled because I came to Pavel's work before anything else, so I've absorbed these "secrets" early and they're second nature now. I tense myself up like a blowfish and knock off 5X5 one arm pushups, for instance. Just think of the carry over skills this stuff brings to martial arts fighting!!!

Pavel M., I think a good dumbbell programme based on SF principles would be very well received indeed. Lots of people have them lying around already in their homes. Some think kettlebells are too specifically designed and are even dangerous. My wife will use dumbbells for example but tried and hates kettlebells.

I am working on the dumbbell project hard for last few moths. You will like it, guaranteed

 

[Pavel Macek]

@305pelusa As I said before, I was doing the stretching course for some time, to the letter (3 times a week, 1 hour each session) as the last thing after hard day. My wife, same thing (and she still continues with the program). I have the front split, very good improvement in the straddle/pancake and the bridge, not so much in the side split. As I learned more from Jon Engum at the Flexible Steel, I switched to my own routine, for last few months relatively easy one, just to maintain my current flexibility, as my main program was getting harder.

As for other GB products, please see above. So or so, I am not qualified to discuss GB programs in detail - GB have their own forum with qualified instructors.

I am more qualified to answer anything concerning SFB Bodyweight program, as it is what brought me to Pavel's Hardstyle years ago, and what I have practiced and taught the drills on numerous occasions. I use all the principles I have learned at SFB all the time, regardless the tool. This is one of the main aims of SFB, and all StrongFirst courses. We just use different tools, which can unlock the strength potential from different angles.

Respectfuly

 

[Kozushi]

Callisthenics fascinates me as a way to train with almost or with absolutely no equipment and as a way to load a lot of weight on yourself without the dangers of dropping a heavy weight on yourself or on the floor, but moving a weight around that you pick up is a different dynamic and equally real world, and not something to be overlooked. Something nice about S&S is how the TGUs are both weight lifting and bodyweight callisthenics combined into one. With the TGUs you can get things done that would take several different bodyweight exercises to do, plus things that bodyweight can't so, like the windmill part or the isometric press holds at different stages of it. The TGUs in S&S make S&S a part bodyweight programme too.

I think you can get in amazing condition and develop great strength through callisthenics but what do kettlebells cost? For S&S you'll need 3: either 16kg, 24kg and 32kg, or if you're a heavier guy, 24kg, 32kg, 40kg. That's probably about $250 all told. For a once in a lifetime expense, probably not too much of a problem.

For fighting, I really don't think callisthenics can provide everything weights can. At least with kettlebell training, which I do, I notice that when I lay off them and only do callisthenics for a while that I lose a lot of my twisting power for one side pulling. It's easier to load uneven weight on yourself with weights. Weights is less "symmetrical" and balanced but rather instead it is a more rugged, rougher, more "chaotic" if you will treatment for your body frame.

 

[Kettlebelephant]

For fighting, I really don't think callisthenics can provide everything weights can. At least with kettlebell training, which I do, I notice that when I lay off them and only do callisthenics for a while that I lose a lot of my twisting power for one side pulling. It's easier to load uneven weight on yourself with weights. Weights is less "symmetrical" and balanced but rather instead it is a more rugged, rougher, more "chaotic" if you will treatment for your body frame.

I read several discussions at the sherdog forum and the consensus is that it depends on your specific martial art.
A boxer or kickboxer doesn't really need external weights, because he only has to move his own body efficiently. Calisthenics would be a good choice.
Someone participating in BJJ or grappling on the other hand needs to move external weight (-> the body of the opponent).
For him/her some kind of training with weights is recommended.

 

[Sergej]

Instagram post by Christopher Joyce • Apr 23, 2017 at 11:22pm UTC

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Instagram post by Christopher Joyce • Apr 23, 2017 at 11:22pm UTC

Nice!
I hope the cups don't break

 

[Kozushi]

I read several discussions at the sherdog forum and the consensus is that it depends on your specific martial art.
A boxer or kickboxer doesn't really need external weights, because he only has to move his own body efficiently. Calisthenics would be a good choice.
Someone participating in BJJ or grappling on the other hand needs to move external weight (-> the body of the opponent).
For him/her some kind of training with weights is recommended.

Thank you for sharing this wisdom with me and it makes perfect sense. Striking arts are about moving your own body but grappling is about moving someone else's body, so callisthenics for striking and external weights for grappling. I noticed this also with "fitness" type training for them too. For striking sports, running and skipping around is good but for grappling that stuff is next to useless!

 

[Kozushi]

I just tried getting through Al's phase 4 week 4 programme of his "Get Strong" programme and what I think is that anyone who can do all that stuff, especially if you're moderate to heavy weight, is a BEAST!!!

I was shocked at how much more weight feet elevated pushups load onto your arms! Anyhow, I completed about half of his first half of the exercises, and I was DONE!!! Hahaha! GREAT STUFF!!!

His exercise theory is actually very congruent with Pavel's in that he sees high volume of slightly lighter weight moves giving you both strength endurance and ABSOLUTE strength also. It's like in S&S where we do a very high number of swing reps, or in ROP where we do an insanely huge number of C&P reps, which translate into much higher absolute strength than we would guess.

Anyhow, I'm very impressed!

This doesn't seduce me away from the simplicity and the "external weight" factors of S&S, but it's great stuff all the same!

 

[Carl]

My take:

High rep, low weight (relatively speaking) definitely has crossover in terms of building strength as well as strength endurance. Just like, high load and low rep work has a degree of crossover (strength and strength endurance).

In terms of tools to get the job done, it depends where your focus is. Most of us can afford to mix modalities and keep training focused but interesting. We don't need to become dogmatic (i.e. If I do this, I can't do that).

I'm not suggesting constantly hopping from this to that is a good idea (chasing new) but we can embrace the best of a few worlds.

Calisthenics is the oldest and most time tested way of humans getting strong. It works if done progressively. So do barbells, so do kettlebells, so do dumbells, etc etc.



p.s. Just a note on the book - it's co-written by Al and his brother Danny. Worth a mention as Danny is also an outstanding coach in his own right.

I just tried getting through Al's phase 4 week 4 programme of his "Get Strong" programme and what I think is that anyone who can do all that stuff, especially if you're moderate to heavy weight, is a BEAST!!!

I was shocked at how much more weight feet elevated pushups load onto your arms! Anyhow, I completed about half of his first half of the exercises, and I was DONE!!! Hahaha! GREAT STUFF!!!

His exercise theory is actually very congruent with Pavel's in that he sees high volume of slightly lighter weight moves giving you both strength endurance and ABSOLUTE strength also. It's like in S&S where we do a very high number of swing reps, or in ROP where we do an insanely huge number of C&P reps, which translate into much higher absolute strength than we would guess.

Anyhow, I'm very impressed!

This doesn't seduce me away from the simplicity and the "external weight" factors of S&S, but it's great stuff all the same!

 

[Norcoaster]

I just tried getting through Al's phase 4 week 4 programme of his "Get Strong" programme and what I think is that anyone who can do all that stuff, especially if you're moderate to heavy weight, is a BEAST!!!

I was shocked at how much more weight feet elevated pushups load onto your arms! Anyhow, I completed about half of his first half of the exercises, and I was DONE!!! Hahaha! GREAT STUFF!!!

His exercise theory is actually very congruent with Pavel's in that he sees high volume of slightly lighter weight moves giving you both strength endurance and ABSOLUTE strength also. It's like in S&S where we do a very high number of swing reps, or in ROP where we do an insanely huge number of C&P reps, which translate into much higher absolute strength than we would guess.

Anyhow, I'm very impressed!

This doesn't seduce me away from the simplicity and the "external weight" factors of S&S, but it's great stuff all the same!

Consider "ultimate mma conditioning" by Joel jamieson as a way to organize/cycle your exercises for martial arts fitness.

 

[Kozushi]

My take:

High rep, low weight (relatively speaking) definitely has crossover in terms of building strength as well as strength endurance. Just like, high load and low rep work has a degree of crossover (strength and strength endurance).

In terms of tools to get the job done, it depends where your focus is. Most of us can afford to mix modalities and keep training focused but interesting. We don't need to become dogmatic (i.e. If I do this, I can't do that).

I'm not suggesting constantly hopping from this to that is a good idea (chasing new) but we can embrace the best of a few worlds.

Calisthenics is the oldest and most time tested way of humans getting strong. It works if done progressively. So do barbells, so do kettlebells, so do dumbells, etc etc.



p.s. Just a note on the book - it's co-written by Al and his brother Danny. Worth a mention as Danny is also an outstanding coach in his own right.

It's not about hopping about. S&S is all you need but not necessarily all you want. If you're a martial arts fighter, you'll likely want to if not have to ramp things up a bit. I weight 100kg so that's a decent amount of weight to lift. Lifting my own weight asymmetrically is like handling a 200kg barbell in a way, so I think my own bodyweight is pretty decently heavy for anything I want to do outside of kettelbelling. Kind of a nice contrast too with callisthenics being perfectly balanced and kettlebelling being the exact opposite!

Good point about Danny. He has some excellent articles in the "Get Strong" book too, and he and Al worked out what the exact nature of the workouts in the book would be together.

 

[Carl]

Bodyweight can definitely meet most needs. Personally I just prefer the challenge and feeling of moving my body around so 80% plus of my training is bodyweight only.

Good luck with training!

It's not about hopping about. S&S is all you need but not necessarily all you want. If you're a martial arts fighter, you'll likely want to if not have to ramp things up a bit. I weight 100kg so that's a decent amount of weight to lift. Lifting my own weight asymmetrically is like handling a 200kg barbell in a way, so I think my own bodyweight is pretty decently heavy for anything I want to do outside of kettelbelling. Kind of a nice contrast too with callisthenics being perfectly balanced and kettlebelling being the exact opposite!

Good point about Danny. He has some excellent articles in the "Get Strong" book too, and he and Al worked out what the exact nature of the workouts in the book would be together.