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Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic continued...

Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
Screenshot_20220723-180120_Polar Flow.jpg
today's C&J with one 32kg on 30 sec, went for 45 minutes and the usual 10k rowing home aerobically. I find it always amazing, how the rowing devours the previous: first 4km around 2:9,5/500 then it opens up on the last 4km around 2:06,5/500 at relatively constant hr. Lost 2,5kg/5,5lb water.

this single bell template feels like riding up a long hill by bike, it just gets warmer with going longer...I got pretty warm ears. It also feels a bit like sauna, a bit like fever. I like the fractional breathing practice with tge one bell a lot. On the rower it is just 1 breath per stroke around 30 brraths per minute then.

to compare with Tuesday's effort:
Screenshot_20220719-172216_Polar Flow.jpg
basically same room temperature as today @ 24,0 C, but outside was 11 degrees warmer.
Here I got higher heart rates, did 15 min less on C&J and rowing was over a minute slower on the 10k.

Still comparing short term apples to oranges.
Funny it will get to compare with winter's sauerkraut...but better not compare too much, just watch...
 

TrailNRG

Level 6 Valued Member
Harald,
What app are you using to record your sessions? I’m assuming it’s a heart rate monitor application.
Thank you!
-lars
 

Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
Am I reading that right? 3 reps of dbl 36kg C&J every 30s for an hour and 10km of rowing ?
As @Bauer explained. With one bell I go on 30s, with two otm. Otm for an hour with
2 x32kg Will be an autumn/winter goal, it's just too warm for that yet.
Harald,
What app are you using to record your sessions? I’m assuming it’s a heart rate monitor application.
Thank you!
-lars
I use the polar h10 chest strap in conjunction with the polar m430 watch and have it in eyesight. After the session I let the watch synchronize with the polar flow app on my phone and label the hr chart. With the C&J I spot the time on the watch, on 30sec or otm. With the rowing I spot my hr creating a nice flat line, thus 'trainspotting'.
 

Pasibrzuch

Level 6 Valued Member
sir @Harald Motz,
first of all it's great to see you on the forum again. Your logs with super long A+A snatch sessions were my biggest source of training inspiration a few years back, so is it now.
May I ask:
1. Is there any particular reason for sequencing C&J sessions together with LSD sessions? Is there any particular adaptation you're striving towards with such a template? I always try to separate my power endurance, pure strength and aerobic sessions so as not to "throw my organism into different directions". Don't you find the long aerobic sessions to impede your power endurance progress? Would you recommend the way you do it to intermediate lifters as well, or is it a idiosyncrasy of your training system?
2. How do you progress with the CandJ template? Do you move to a heavier bell once you manage to do the whole 30mins, or do you stay with the same bell for 2 weeks, or as long as necessary?
3. Do you think extending the session over 30 mins makes sense. I mean only the clean and jerk part?
 
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Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
Screenshot_20220730-115737_Polar Flow.jpg
Did this 'slow jog' today before noon

late afternoon:
Screenshot_20220730-173519_Polar Flow.jpg
basically a 'repeat' of yesterday's session with the single 36. 2,2kg/4,84lb water transpired & evaporated.

@Pasibrzuch

1. the 'reasoning' of doing the 10k row is...'active recovery' from the work before which got because of warmth and all other metrics quite intense.

With regards to power, I consider my application of the single bell version like 'power endurance muscle work' - I strive for a efficiency kind of gs style, the work/rest is almost 1/1 so not much.
The double version is kind of 'power strenth endurance' to me. I behave hardstyle, the work/rest here is about 1/3.

The pace of the row is relatively easy but engaging, as rowing is nearly at every pace (cycling outside at that hr would be much of a chill...) With the rower and the monitor you get some interesting data to muse about what's going on. The pace of the row usually gets faster till the end at my current hr aim of 130. The first third is for clearing lactate, the second third the aerobic system comes up, the last third I have decent pull on the handle.

An hour after the session my hr is already settled down to around 60bpm.

Is there any particular adaptation you're striving towards with such a template?
I feel that I can currently (summer) do something pretty good on 'heat resilience': the C&J get just hot. Sweat kicks in after around 10 minutes...towards the end I feel hot face and ears...then on the rower I feel kind if chilled after 15 or so minutes but the real sweatfest already started - therefore I find it interesting to do a naked weigh in and a weigh out after shower. For up to 90 min sessions I do not drink anything but always enjoy how great simple table water tastes after...like back then when I ran up and down the soccer field as a kid in the hot summer months...
Heat adaptation is sadly a global concern.

I always try to separate my power endurance, pure strength and aerobic sessions so as not to "throw my organism into different directions".
Literature and expirience says so - for a reason

Don't you find the long aerobic sessions to impede your power endurance progress?
Quite the opposite. For proper A+A the Aerobic is a big part of the equation. 1+1=2,5...
I found over the years that Aerobics can't be too easy, personally I find MAF, 'zone 2' too hard to focus on.

Would you recommend the way you do it to intermediate lifters as well, or is it a idiosyncrasy of your training system?
Can't recommend. What one can do or willing to do is highly individual. So what you said above with separating power, strength endurance is a basic time tested recommendation. I follow no special plan nor I want to optinize things. I do often repeat some sessions like today for some days, putting something in the forefront to forget about other elements. The training 'just happens'. I have a lot of different modules I can put off my training shelf for different circumstances.

2. How do you progress with the CandJ template? Do you move to a heavier bell once you manage to do the whole 30mins, or do you stay with the same bell for 2 weeks, or as long as necessary?
With the C&J template there is a lot to butcher. Double cleans (might get heavier than 2x32kg the jerk of the double jerks probably give a lot of time to be getting eventually to 5r otm. So I can stay at a weight for some considerable time. In autumn/winter things getting easier by quite a lot.

3. Do you think extending the session over 30 mins makes sense. I mean only the clean and jerk part?
To fight winter blues...absolutely.
 

Pasibrzuch

Level 6 Valued Member
(...)I follow no special plan nor I want to optinize things. I do often repeat some sessions like today for some days, putting something in the forefront to forget about other elements. The training 'just happens'. (...)
Thank you very much for taking time and answering.
I should have been more precise with the question about the aerobic training's negative influence. What I meant is does it impede other adaptations when done directly after the strength or power endurance session. From answers to other questions I understand that it might, but it serves you in a different way (e.g. lactate clearance, resilience to weather conditions, etc.). Separating sessions with different targets might be beneficial for more "pure" adaptations in different modules of strength&conditioning, nevertheless you personally don't feel the urge to do so most of the times.
Thank you one more time!
 

Dayz

Level 7 Valued Member
@Harald Motz
Amazing work as always.

Have you interspersed cycles of Q&D into A+A at all?

If so I'm keen to hear your thoughts on alternating cycles of the two and the results of that.
 

Anders

Level 6 Valued Member
.@Harald Motz : I was wondering what kind of principles you follow in order to assure that you Will have progress ? How do you balance between variety and continuity with the same exercises ?
 

Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
What I meant is does it impede other adaptations when done directly after the strength or power endurance session.
The always fitting answer: it depends. It depends on the duration and intensity of the endurance stuff.
Screenshot_20220801-165224_Polar Flow.jpg
today's double session: took around 4km/18 min when I got faster while decreasing hr, this trend kept up till the end. I don't think that I get any impeding effect to priors C&J opposite, as half an hour otm at that schedule has a good ammount of aerobic component. Additionally I feel it might have a good stimulus on rowing 'performance': the slower rowing fibers have to deal with floating lactate, additionally clycogen levels are depleted to a good amount by the C&J: after lactate clearance then the rowing might even more rely on fat metabolism. This is all just speculation by myself...just keep believing until it works .

@Harald Motz
Amazing work as always.

Have you interspersed cycles of Q&D into A+A at all?

If so I'm keen to hear your thoughts on alternating cycles of the two and the results of that.
I never did 'pure' Q&D cycles to alternate with A&A. I like to pull Q&D inspired sessions off the shelf, as I did quite some the last 4 years can be 1-5 times a week:

Screenshot_20220718-164209_Polar Flow.jpg
basically the 015 template alternating 10 halfsnatches with 10 dips and half an hour on the Crosstrainer.

Screenshot_20220731-162523_Polar Flow.jpg
yesterdays 044 snatches followed by pressing cluster and rowing
.@Harald Motz : I was wondering what kind of principles you follow in order to assure that you Will have progress ? How do you balance between variety and continuity with the same exercises ?
I like to say that I can keep up training without making progress. The main driver might be the continuity. Along the way I might see how a 10k or 2k goes, snatch tests or a DL with or without deadlifting.
It makes me feel good, when I can do the same work with lower hr.
I enjoy training and being repetitive...over time some things develop. As I am 45 I am entering the wrong side of 40 haha.

For balance between variety and continuity: I might have around say 8 lifts/exercises I train over the years. Some weeks/months I might do more of a, b, c while forgetting x,y,z...back and forth.
 

JPCross

Level 6 Valued Member
Really liking following along in this thread!

A question for you and I apologize if you mentioned it previously and I missed it - is there a stroke rate you're aiming for or maintaining during the steady state rows?
 

Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
Really liking following along in this thread!

A question for you and I apologize if you mentioned it previously and I missed it - is there a stroke rate you're aiming for or maintaining during the steady state rows?
Usually on easier rowing I have around 30 strokes per minute - on a hard effort on 2 or 10 k I am around 35-37 my preferred damper setting is 7-8. I absolutely don't go into the weeds of drag factor, technique - I just keep my upper body pretty upright with minimal lean and never experienced any ill effects on lower back. I think my cadence is on the higher side might due to the fact that I am a shorter type of 1,78m/5.8ft...
 

TrailNRG

Level 6 Valued Member
I think my cadence is on the higher side might due to the fact that I am a shorter type of 1,78m/5.8ft...
That’s usually the case; the longer the pull / recovery, the lower the cadence. I’m 181cm and settle in around 28spm for Z2 training whereas my son is 188cm at 24spm.
I tried my first double C&J session for 20min with 24kgs followed by a Z2 5k row yesterday and really liked the pairing. I’ll keep with this time/weight/distance for a few weeks and report back.
 

Harald Motz

Level 8 Valued Member
That’s usually the case; the longer the pull / recovery, the lower the cadence. I’m 181cm and settle in around 28spm for Z2 training whereas my son is 188cm at 24spm.
I tried my first double C&J session for 20min with 24kgs followed by a Z2 5k row yesterday and really liked the pairing. I’ll keep with this time/weight/distance for a few weeks and report back.
I feel it is a good combination. I think a 5k around 20 min will give a lot of bang for the buck for an easy 'finisher'. Lactate gets cleared heart rate comes down and you end the session aerobically...I suspect 20 min of C&J 25 min row is like a 45 min row with initial power bursts. 1+1=2,5.
 
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