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Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic continued...

Went for an A&A session this morning, rolling three pairs of dice corresponding to sets of five swings on the minute at 16KG, 24 KG and 32KG respectively, getting six sets of 16KG, seven of 24KG and eleven at 32KG. I also had sets of single pull-ups (odd sets) and rear lunges (even sets) following that.

My trusty heart rate monitor said:

Average HR: 146 BPM
Maximum HR: 172 BPM

Is EMOM the preferred time interval for A&A or should longer intervals like 70-90 seconds be used for longer sessions like this one?

Of note I’m aware of Fabio Zonin’s 6-10 sets at two minute intervals and would use those for shorter sessions of A&A either as standalone sessions or as an SV and Conditioning one stop shop on Bench days when I start using the barbell once again.
 
Went for an A&A session this morning, rolling three pairs of dice corresponding to sets of five swings on the minute at 16KG, 24 KG and 32KG respectively, getting six sets of 16KG, seven of 24KG and eleven at 32KG. I also had sets of single pull-ups (odd sets) and rear lunges (even sets) following that.

My trusty heart rate monitor said:

Average HR: 146 BPM
Maximum HR: 172 BPM

Is EMOM the preferred time interval for A&A or should longer intervals like 70-90 seconds be used for longer sessions like this one?

Of note I’m aware of Fabio Zonin’s 6-10 sets at two minute intervals and would use those for shorter sessions of A&A either as standalone sessions or as an SV and Conditioning one stop shop on Bench days when I start using the barbell once again.
I will say that with repeat sets, I design my interval timing selection around my recovery. Not the other way around. If I can't recover in 30 seconds, then I move to EMOM, and if I'm still not recovered, then I move it to 90s. If I recover 10s ahead of time, it's no skin off my nose. I like the structure for some psychological reasons. If I recover way ahead under the next time bracket, 30 or 60 or 90 then I think about taking it down a notch, and stepping into the new interval.

The interset recovery needs to be enough to accommodate breath recovery.
 
I've been using Harald's method of double C&J's on the minute. I adjust the weight or reps based on recovery and how I'm feeling that day. What I've found interesting is that I naturally wave the load when looking back at my sessions over a 6 week period. My goal is to always finish fresh so that I can hop on the erg and row easy for 30-50min immediately following.
This matches what @Adachi mentions above.
 
I've been using Harald's method of double C&J's on the minute. I adjust the weight or reps based on recovery and how I'm feeling that day. What I've found interesting is that I naturally wave the load when looking back at my sessions over a 6 week period. My goal is to always finish fresh so that I can hop on the erg and row easy for 30-50min immediately following.
This matches what @Adachi mentions above.
How many sets do you ordinarily do?
 
How many sets do you ordinarily do?
Between 20 and 30 sets. Lately it's been 3 reps on the minute using a pair of 24kg bells. On the days my form is good I'll use the 28's for 20min. In looking at my log I've naturally settled into 3 sessions (20min, 25min, 30min ) over the course of a week. I've been doing this for 6 weeks and plan to continue through Sept unless motivation or form wanes.
 
I've been using Harald's method of double C&J's on the minute. I adjust the weight or reps based on recovery and how I'm feeling that day. What I've found interesting is that I naturally wave the load when looking back at my sessions over a 6 week period. My goal is to always finish fresh so that I can hop on the erg and row easy for 30-50min immediately following.
This matches what @Adachi mentions above.
What do you have the ERG set at for difficulty level?
 
Two years into A+A, started light, so EMOM was fine, then as weight increased went first to 75s and then to 90, last 10 months, all work has been untimed; meaning resting time by feel, as Al Ciampa advises.
Never looked back…

I think this is an important point. People often look for the rest time to decrease as they get better at A+A. In reality, the thing to pursue is more quality work with heavier weight. Depending on how one progresses, the rest may need to increase to accommodate the improvements -- and that is fine.
 
I use a Concept2 with a damper setting of 4.5 and stroke rate around 20spm. Here's a snapshot of this morning's session where I was doing some drills that my son taught me to lengthen my stroke and flatten the power curve.
Image 9-2-22 at 12.38 PM.jpeg
The A&A session prior to this was 25min of 3x C&J with double 24's.
 
I think this is an important point. People often look for the rest time to decrease as they get better at A+A. In reality, the thing to pursue is more quality work with heavier weight. Depending on how one progresses, the rest may need to increase to accommodate the improvements -- and that is fine.
If I were to redesign this morning's session I might've done my 16KG and 24KG sets at EMOM and the 32KG ones at 90 second intervals based on that standard.
 
If I were to redesign this morning's session I might've done my 16KG and 24KG sets at EMOM and the 32KG ones at 90 second intervals based on that standard.
That can work, to adjust the rest time to what is needed. But some variability in the amount of recovery can be good, too. By using a fixed rest time, you got more complete recovery with the lighter weights.
 
That can work, to adjust the rest time to what is needed. But some variability in the amount of recovery can be good, too. By using a fixed rest time, you got more complete recovery with the lighter weights.
Hell, I could've easily done it in reverse, started heavy and finished light in a drop sets fashion.
 
Screenshot_20220829-171237_Polar Flow.jpg
A double clean session a few days ago. Rest getting longer, starting point around 110bpm, breathing absolutely settled down.

Screenshot_20220824-154520_Polar Flow.jpg
The same workload 5r x20 @ 2x36 a few days earlier when it was warmer: hr spiked higher and took about 5 min longer.

Going EMOM, on 90 sec or untimed is a matter of workload...one is not better than the other, it has to be approprate...to the workload. Whe going heavier or 'learning the lift' untimed is the way to go in most cases.
 
I fi
View attachment 18920
A double clean session a few days ago. Rest getting longer, starting point around 110bpm, breathing absolutely settled down.

View attachment 18921
The same workload 5r x20 @ 2x36 a few days earlier when it was warmer: hr spiked higher and took about 5 min longer.

Going EMOM, on 90 sec or untimed is a matter of workload...one is not better than the other, it has to be approprate...to the workload. Whe going heavier or 'learning the lift' untimed is the way to go in most cases.

Perhaps doing the heavy lift and waiting till the heartrate calms down to around Zone 2 or Zone 1 level is a good way to cook this?
 
I think this is an important point. People often look for the rest time to decrease as they get better at A+A. In reality, the thing to pursue is more quality work with heavier weight. Depending on how one progresses, the rest may need to increase to accommodate the improvements -- and that is fine.
Yessss Anna fully agree.
Also I’ve found out that sometimes my untimed by feel rests are roughly 90s on avg whereas other times they are shorter or longer. As I accumulate repeats I realise the simplicity of “by feel” is the most precise yardstick… it takes into account how your body is responding on that day to training… not forcing anything, just letting your body express power and recover to that stimulus.
 
Yessss Anna fully agree.
Also I’ve found out that sometimes my untimed by feel rests are roughly 90s on avg whereas other times they are shorter or longer. As I accumulate repeats I realise the simplicity of “by feel” is the most precise yardstick… it takes into account how your body is responding on that day to training… not forcing anything, just letting your body express power and recover to that stimulus.
The benefit of using fixed times is that the duration of the session fluctuates. This then, from experience and in combinationwith the additionof partial rep progression, builds in a volume variation somewhat close to the Delta 20 principle.
 
Re-read an article titled Limited Training Time/Maximum Results (link) by Jim Wendler in which a client of his only had a single day per week to get access to a barbell. Not an ideal situation, but it got me thinking of another way to use kettlebells on the remaining five days of a week if I found myself in similar straits (such as if I have a work schedule where I can only use the barbell 1/week)
  • One Barbell Day/Week as per article
  • One or two A+A days/week
  • One or two Roadwork or Swim days/week
Gotta love how wisdom like in threads such as this one dovetail nicely into other strength/conditioning articles.
 
@Harald Motz
Have you noticed any carryover on other exercices ?
Have you ever tested something else since you practice theses protocols ?
What about hypertrophy ?

Long cycle C&J with 2x36kg... madness :)
 
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I had a Harald Motz like workout this week. The squats weren't nearly as snappy as I wanted them to be (and I wanted to be doing doubles instead of singles) but it was a good session anyway:
Main = single 225lb Manta Ray SQ w. Chains + single Cone Grip Pull-Ups x 10 (on 3 minutes)
(followed immediately by) 16kg KB Snatch x 30 mins (10rpm, switch hands on the minute)
Time = 1:01, HR Max = 170, HR Avg = 143


9-6-22.png

(Last set, I think):
 
@Harald Motz
Have you noticed any carryover on other exercices ?
Have you ever tested something else since you practice theses protocols ?
What about hypertrophy ?

Long cycle C&J with 2x36kg... madness :)
Apart from a deadlift sort of a max of 230kg @ 90kg bw without doing dl for a few months it stayed around a solid 2,5× bw - I experienced it too when I did a lot of A+A snatching.
As for hypertrophy - people who see me the first time almost always ask where/what I train - sometimes people seem to think I am 'enhanced'.

Screenshot_20220910-175603_Polar Flow.jpg
a day later I worked into C&J with 2 x36kg for the first time for triples, classic A+A style:
Screenshot_20220911-185507_Polar Flow.jpg

today I went for 45 min on the C&J and counted the peaks after recording:
Screenshot_20220913-163917_Polar Flow.jpg
This is a really nice way to get into 'stress free' work - set a time frame, and let the repeats happen according to the day's ability.
 
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