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Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic

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Hello Harald, the work your doing is inspirational to say the least, I'm currently working to get to your original starting point.
I noticed in the above graphs you started at a lower HR than in the latter one, was that by design? I noticed in my own training some days my starting HR has to change as on certain days I have to wait longer for the HR to retreat and I don't want to wait that long. I think coffee intake, sleep etc. are factors.
 
07-08-17-snatch-40kg-png.3772

07-08-2017
1h snatch - 40kg - 5reps - 22repeats - 36min - 131avg/147

So if we compare your latest training session to this training session from a year ago (your second post to this thread), it would appear that the key differences between then and now are that you're taking an extra 30 seconds per set, and doing an extra 40 kg of volume per set. What it doesn't account for as well is the the added durability required to last 20 sets with the added 40 kg of load per set.

I finally started using the 32 for all my sessions a couple months ago (sets of 4). I'll be happy even if I never move on to anything heavier, but it appears that I may have my expectations set too low :). Time will tell...
 
Bret S. said:
I noticed in the above graphs you started at a lower HR than in the latter one, was that by design? I noticed in my own training some days my starting HR has to change as on certain days I have to wait longer for the HR to retreat and I don't want to wait that long. I think coffee intake, sleep etc. are factors.
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The later in the session the longer it takes to recover which is obvious. I really like to start, when I feel ready, breathing totally settled. I think A+A progress/success may be 1/3 work, 2/3 rest. Different days can make very noticeable outcomes hr-wise hydration, time of day, climate, time of year, sleep, mood, accumulated workload of the week...and some more.

The Nail said:
Impressive recovery profile. What are you doing for your aerobic work these days?
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30-45 min of running or rowing on most days. 120-140bpm. When the Alactic work is one half, Aerobic work is the other half.

Snowman said:
So if we compare your latest training session to this training session from a year ago (your second post to this thread), it would appear that the key differences between then and now are that you're taking an extra 30 seconds per set, and doing an extra 40 kg of volume per set. What it doesn't account for as well is the the added durability required to last 20 sets with the added 40 kg of load per set.
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Yes to compare these I am resting longer. A pity, that I do not have my very first sessions with the 40kg but I bet 20repeats for five took me around 40min too. It will be interesting to compare 5x20 @48k in a few weeks and months.

Snowman said:
What it doesn't account for as well is the the added durability required to last 20 sets with the added 40 kg of load per set.
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definitely. from 40kg to 48kg is 20% increase, that is huge. Surely some body tissue have to be developed over time to handle that, especially the eccentric turnover point.

Snowman said:
I finally started using the 32 for all my sessions a couple months ago (sets of 4). I'll be happy even if I never move on to anything heavier, but it appears that I may have my expectations set too low :). Time will tell...
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I did not plan to be getting into A+A work with the 48kg, but now I have seen that it is doable, and I want to stay a bit with it to see what happens.
 
Very interesting thread, and great inspiration that you are providing us With Harald.

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It seems like you are sticking With the snatch, and light running.
Could this program also have been done With one arm push-press or one arm swing ?

**
I am curious about knee-Health. Are all of us able to run two to Three times a week without ending up With worne-out knees when we Reach Our sixties or seventies ?

**
You seem quite muscular Harald. Do you think that this kind of physique can be built simply by being able to do Heavy snatch, or do you think other excersises are also needed ?


Would be Grateful for all replies.
 
Anders said:
I am curious about knee-Health. Are all of us able to run two to Three times a week without ending up With worne-out knees when we Reach Our sixties or seventies ?
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Are "all of us"? No.
Some of us? Yes.

@Anders
There are many variables in this equation. History. Genetics. Running style, type, surface, distance, speed. Bio-mechanics. Nutrition. Shoes. The list goes on, but I'm sure you get the point.

I run. I'm in my 60's. I have been running since my teens. At times seriously. My knees are good.

Running is a cheap, effective, and elegant way to provide locomotive cardio-respiratory training. But there are many other good options available.
 
My first 5reps per repeat @48kg from Tuesday, six days ago:
48kg - 5rx20 -.PNG snatch 48kg - 5rx20 - 41:25min - 136avg/158max

today's session with 4reps per repeat:

snatch 48kg - 4rx25.PNG
snatch 48kg - 4rx25 - 42min - 119avg/138max

The same volume in more or less the same time frame but very different outcomes the same, but different. A rep per repeat is a huge difference, 4reps are 20% less then five reps - or 5 reps are 25% more than 4reps.

Saturdays 10km rowing session:

10k rowing.PNG rowing 10km - 45:30min - 119avg/128max

This rowing session has the same average hr as todays snatch session almost same length, roughly the same calories burned. What is Cardio???
I find these low hr sessions extremely beneficial. Sometimes I have the feeling that it almost can not be low enough to a certain degree. It will never seem me again, that those low heart rate steady states are useless. Sometimes even MAF is to hard for me.

But nevertheless, Alactic and Aerobic is a symbiosis, period.
 
malleus said:
This thread is a pure gold!
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A+A is, in my opinion.

Anders said:
It seems like you are sticking With the snatch, and light running.
Could this program also have been done With one arm push-press or one arm swing ?
Click to expand...
Sure it could be done. My first A+A protocols from Al I used the swing. From the theory you want to use an explosive move were a set may last around 10seconds and because of explosiveness and muscle fiber recruitment the ATP/PCr system is used.

after the swing protocols I did two or three snatch protocols, starting with 32kg. The snatch is the most powerful move you can do with one kettlebell and it has other benefits especially regarding posture. In the last two years I definitely snatched a lot in volume and intensity, and I am quite surprised how well my shoulders tolerate it. Intermittently I used rarely double high pulls or double cleans. Would work quite well also. But somehow I go back to the one arm snatch maybe because of the sunken cost fallacy: "Now I have put so much time and effort into the snatch, I can not substitute it anymore:" -
or it is because it took my delicate skin just so long, that I do not want to loose it anymore.

Anders said:
I am curious about knee-Health. Are all of us able to run two to Three times a week without ending up With worne-out knees when we Reach Our sixties or seventies ?
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My guess is that in the long run combining easy running with ballistics is a win-win. You will recover better from repeat to repeat and session to session because of the running, your running will benefit from the muscle building and knee - friendliness of the ballistics.

Anders said:
You seem quite muscular Harald. Do you think that this kind of physique can be built simply by being able to do Heavy snatch, or do you think other excersises are also needed ?
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I eat carbs. My kind of physique can only bee me. Joke aside: if you do and tolerate snatching heavy with volume accumulated over some longer periods of time your body will reflect that to a good amount of degree. You could snatch alone if you have no problem to think that that would be enough, then it is enough.
On the flip side For in my opinion no one can go wrong with Pavel's advice: a pull and a press, a ballistic and a grind: snatch and press, or in the lines of @Pavel Macek's Royal S&S, combining the snatch with the bent press. I personally do with my snatch work a good amount of bent pressing lately. I love it.

Stuart Elliott said:
great to see back posting on the forum. I always enjoy reading your posts, especially on A+A.
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thanks Stu.
Sometimes I enjoy to post something, especially on A+A...
 
Harald Motz said:
This rowing session has the same average hr as todays snatch session almost same length, roughly the same calories burned. What is Cardio???
I find these low hr sessions extremely beneficial. Sometimes I have the feeling that it almost can not be low enough to a certain degree. It will never seem me again, that those low heart rate steady states are useless. Sometimes even MAF is to hard for me.

But nevertheless, Alactic and Aerobic is a symbiosis, period.
Click to expand...

Bolded part is something I was just talking about in another thread. There is something to be said for what I call "carefree" aerobic sessions. Non-intentional physical activity, unstructured PA, call it whatever you want, but I don't think you need to be at your MAF (which for many equates to 70-80% max HR) to see benefit. Move and don't worry about your heart rate. Grab a loved one and do it in nature while you're at it
 
The Nail said:
Al, would loading hiking/rucking have this effect too?
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I'm a walker, and I don't really "ruck" much - just walk bodyweight only for at least 75 minutes at a time. As I understand it, walking does a lot of good things for you when done for long enough at a time. As Al Ciampa put it, walking and running are similar but not the same, and walking may be healthier for you in fact, but in any case, they are not the same thing. I certainly do run a bit, and I think highly of it of course. Some comments I have comparing it and walking are that walking seems to engage more muscles but running even though it engages less muscles it engages them harder. Running can wear out your knees a bit - I've had some bad problems mixing in hard core running and judo training for instance - I'd find I could run a lot when I'd run but when I'd do judo a few days later and go down to my knees that they'd get really sore and I'd feel a bit hobbled. It's often too hot or too cold to run outside comfortably, but when walking it's a lot more tolerable in those weathers. I can walk even though I'm not really feeling up to working out, but running takes motivation I don't always have. Overall I'd say if you want to get in shape fast, the fastest way in the world is probably to run! However, as long as you're walking for a long enough time when you walk, like over 75 minutes or whatever, walking is a fantastic full body exercise and absolutely worth it! I'm quite a huge advocate of walking! I just got back from today's 75 minutes walk in fact a few hours ago.
 
Kozushi said:
I'm a walker, and I don't really "ruck" much - just walk bodyweight only for at least 75 minutes at a time. As I understand it, walking does a lot of good things for you when done for long enough at a time. As Al Ciampa put it, walking and running are similar but not the same, and walking may be healthier for you in fact, but in any case, they are not the same thing.
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I used a weighted vest for a number of years but it started to feel "hard on my knees" though to be fair, I may have been carrying too much, 45 pounds on my 115 body. Sort of turned myself into an "iron fat man". Now when I walk a do a variant of Nordic Walking which I read somewhere can increase calorie burn up to 45% over walking without the poles. Regardless, it very obviously engages most upper body muscles along with what you ordinarily use walking and I just enjoy the feeling of it, sort of like having 4-wheel drive.

This kind

Welcome to Exerstrider | Exerstrider - World's #1 Total Body Walking Poles

The more traditional style has slender handles w/ wrist strap and you push against the strap. Rutlin's version has a more ergonomic handle and you press against a rubber shelf with edge of hand. I don't suppose anyone on here surfs but I found after just a few weeks of every couple days walking with the poles dramatically increased both my paddling speed and paddling endurance which are both critical to enjoying surfing.
 
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