Al Ciampa
Level 7 Valued Member
Nothing yet.
We recorded several weeks ago. Craig introduced it as episode #6. Obviously, they changed the scheduling--perhaps content driven.
Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic
- Thread starter Harald Motz
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Nothing yet.
We recorded several weeks ago. Craig introduced it as episode #6. Obviously, they changed the scheduling--perhaps content driven.
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
Had not thought of this before but this morning, out on a ramble, I was noticing how much walking w/ poles feels like cross crawling (almost equal activation of contralateral limbs). I would guess that it gives nearly same benefits of crawling in addition to whatever else it delivers. Double good for someone like me who never crawled. I was in too much of a hurry as a sprout and went directly from "doing the worm" to dashing around on hands and feet like a 4 legged spider.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I sometimes hike with a walking stick for similar reasons.
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
a day of working the A+A horse:
morning row:
10km - 46:40 - 121avg/127max
afternoon snatch:
snatch 40kg - 4r x 54repeats - 70min - 114avg/130max
Lately I have lots of sessions on the rower and mostly the hr graphs look boring like above @ 119-130 average hr. I snatched less in the last few weeks so I went today with a very high volume session with the 40. I planned for an hour but then went to 70 min, when my left hand had enough. To make it more manageable I went for 4reps per repeat. Then I "just" built up a somewhat nice hr graph, it is completely in the blue zone and looks deceptively easy and does not really reflect the work done. Kind of useful is to compare standardized (same weight, same reps per repeat, same volume) sessions over time. The breathing between repeats was quite calm with a bit of shaking the limbs here and there or just standing and breathing and having a bit of tea.
That is an aspect of A+A: using a medium heavy weight and accumulating repeats on repeats repeatedly sometimes more sometimes less. The same for aerobic locomotion: to go at an intensity and length you could go on almost any day. Calmly and steadily.
morning row:
10km - 46:40 - 121avg/127max
afternoon snatch:
snatch 40kg - 4r x 54repeats - 70min - 114avg/130maxLately I have lots of sessions on the rower and mostly the hr graphs look boring like above @ 119-130 average hr. I snatched less in the last few weeks so I went today with a very high volume session with the 40. I planned for an hour but then went to 70 min, when my left hand had enough. To make it more manageable I went for 4reps per repeat. Then I "just" built up a somewhat nice hr graph, it is completely in the blue zone and looks deceptively easy and does not really reflect the work done. Kind of useful is to compare standardized (same weight, same reps per repeat, same volume) sessions over time. The breathing between repeats was quite calm with a bit of shaking the limbs here and there or just standing and breathing and having a bit of tea.
That is an aspect of A+A: using a medium heavy weight and accumulating repeats on repeats repeatedly sometimes more sometimes less. The same for aerobic locomotion: to go at an intensity and length you could go on almost any day. Calmly and steadily.
Great work as always, @Harald Motz !
I'm curious about your resting HR and your max HR. Have you measured/tested these lately, and are they any different from what you recall they were years ago? (My guess is that the resting HR is probably lower by 5-10 bpm, and the max HR is about the same, but you can do more work in that max effort.)
I'm curious about your resting HR and your max HR. Have you measured/tested these lately, and are they any different from what you recall they were years ago? (My guess is that the resting HR is probably lower by 5-10 bpm, and the max HR is about the same, but you can do more work in that max effort.)
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
Harald I was wondering about doing rowing and snatches the same day, obviously it's no problem for you now but in the beginning, that is when you first started rowing, was it hard for the lower back muscles to handle? I ask because though I'm much better these days my lower back has always been an issue due to construction work.
Secondly I'm interested in rowing but don't want to shell out $900.00 dollars for a C2 right now. I remember somebody on the forum recommending a less expensive rower that had good reviews. The used C2's still go for quite a bit and are bought up quickly around Southern California. Having said that I may consider buying a C2 anyway, the thing stopping me is a coming change in my training location in Dec 2019, if need be I could sell it and re-buy later.
Looking at your HR graphs reminds me of the sewing pattern selector dial I used to see on my mother's sewing machine. Very nice work.
The snatch repeats work out to 78 seconds each including work time, I'm assuming it took longer per repeat in the past.
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
my resting hr in the morning is currently 50 - 52. in the last 5 weeks I really upped my rowing, averaging two 10km on almost any day. I remember, that my resting hr got to mid 40, sometimes even lower, later in Al's "lazy endurance" swing protocols. There I swung 5okg for 5reps EMOM, varying volume four times a week 2x6 weeks with SSST and 10min running test in the beginning of the protocol, then after the protocol and lastly after the second round. Interesting is that during the last week my blood pressure seems to go down the upper figure goes from around 130 to around 110.
With the EMOM schedule my hr peaks rose over the length of a session, as recovery with the bell I used was slightly incomplete. My max heart rates were quite a bit higher than my usual peaks with A+A for the last year or so. I remember resting hr @ mid 40 when I rode my racing bike frequently from spring to autumn 20-10 years ago, as I rode very hilly terrain with lots of up and down. The same goes the heart rate.
With my aerobic work around the thumb I average 125 on the rower, around 133 while running. My A+A work my max goes around 140bpm.
Would be interesting, what kind of stimulus is needed for decreasing RHR. @Bret S. made some great observations and experience with his VWC endeavour. @Anna C experienced low RHR with time on the bike, as I did. The first question would be, what is the main driver for low RHR? the first thing that comes to my mind is a greater heart chamber, that ejects more blood with each beat. With my oversimple presumption I would guess, the heart needs some accumulated time where it expands and ejects it's maximal blood volume. I would guess, that any individual has with each endurance activity a kind of sweet spot where this occurs. Then higher heart rates are just higher heart rates with no additional expending of the heart chamber(s).
My rowing technique seems to be back friendly I have a cadence of around 35 strokes, which is quite high I think. My torso stays erect the whole time, when I film myself, my lower back stays flat (I can goblet squat deeply with very narrow foot positioning). in the end of the stroke there is almost no back lean. And I mostly row in low heart rates. A 2000m test my technique may look different.
It could be that the rower is "the" cardio tool with some occasional running to be getting a bit of an impact with each stride. I am musing and reading a bit on it. The infamous VO2max seems to be kind of important measure for elite rowers. I read somewhere these days, that in 8 men team rowing the crew with the highest average VO2max usually is the the leading team. A rowing event lasts say 7 minutes of almost all out rowing. The blue print rower may be 200cm weighing 100kg. They need almost the maximal mass of muscle, that can be provided with oxygen, while handling a lot of the cruel stuff in the system. High body mass is not a problem for them, as their body and boat is carried by the water.
When looking at a runner in an around 7 min event let's say 3000m obstacle or 1500-5000m runners are more concerned at a higher relative VO2max in relation to their bodyweight as they are fighting big time gravity with each stride. But the runner with the highest relative VOmax must not be the winner, as it is more as very rough pointer.
Another thing is heart adaptation of rowers. With each stroke they put out really high power, and through the valsalva maneuver and isometric stiffening of the torso and resistance on a pull, the blood pressure rises really high. that leads to heart wall thickening, but through the dynamic nature and little eccentric work blood can flow through the system and back to the heart to fill the chambers maximally, thus expanding of the chambers occur. So the hart walls thicken, and the chambers get bigger and sty pliable. Should be a set up for a happy heart.
The concept 2 is great I am happily using it. Imagine you with Buddy Guy on the rower...
Oscar
Level 7 Valued Member
If I had to guess, I would say relaxation and good overall functioning of the body. All the processes become more efficient and therefore require less energy to operate.
Of course aerobic function plays a big role, probably why some cyclists have RHR in the 30s. But I don't think this is the whole picture.
My RHR dropped to 50 in the course of a month or less, and I'm still trying to understand why. I'm not particularly in good aerobic shape so I don't think that's the cause.
JCORN
Level 4 Valued Member
CO = SV x HR
cardiac output = stroke volume x heart rate.
Cardiac output should be the same for someone not taxing their body as long as their mass is the same pre-intervention (not fit) to post intervention (now fit) even if there is a long time in between. So SV goes up for HR to go down. The heart pumps blood more efficiently. Lots and lots of factors contribute to increasing SV.
In the end, I'm not sure it matters other than to satisfy curiosity. If swinging bells makes me feel fitter and stronger, that works for me.
cardiac output = stroke volume x heart rate.
Cardiac output should be the same for someone not taxing their body as long as their mass is the same pre-intervention (not fit) to post intervention (now fit) even if there is a long time in between. So SV goes up for HR to go down. The heart pumps blood more efficiently. Lots and lots of factors contribute to increasing SV.
In the end, I'm not sure it matters other than to satisfy curiosity. If swinging bells makes me feel fitter and stronger, that works for me.
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
It's interesting you said that, I've thought about this too while doing VWC, doing it and operating the heart in the red zone certainly forces adaptations but the nail I want to pound doesn't need a sledge hammer, in fact I don't want to use a bigger hammer than I have to.
This style of rowing would probably work for me as my low back is much more durable these days.
This is what I'm thinking, it would be easy to hop on the rower and go for an hour, that coupled with locomotion work twice weekly sounds like a great combo.
Haha, yes, one could do much worse than having Buddy along for the ride..
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
Good points. Lower resting hr is not only explainable by increased stroke volume, surely it is the simplest one, maybe it has the highest influence. Adaptations on cellular level e.g.higher mitochondrial density, better/more efficient O2 extraction (when I am right, this is what Buteyko practice does?), more Hämoglobin....I think some of these are a by product or adaptation through aerobic exercise training. On the other hand there are breathing practice or just a longer stay at higher elevation, that has impact on blood composition without traditional exercising.
Just breath holding one can "fake" RHR instantly to the "good".
So in short the body as a system is not only the heart, and systems tend to be complex.
kiwipete
Level 8 Valued Member
Kozushi, without trying to sound like a pratt, your comment, "Running can wear out your knees a bit" made me think of Dan John in one of his books, when he talks about a lady who said squatting was hurting her knees. Dan takes a look at her squatting and says something like, " YOU are hurting your knees (by way of inefficient technique)"
I think too many people regard running ( and walking) as 'natural' as opposed to a movement skill to practice and refine like a KB snatch for example. And when injury/ pain occurs it's incorrectly assumed that 'running' causes issues.
krg
Level 7 Valued Member
This is a key point. A C2 holds it's value brilliantly. Parts and monitors are readily available. If you can afford the upfront you'll recoop it all on resale. They're a great purchase IMO.
That's a very high cadence, particularly for the pace you are rowing at. I assume you are getting the power almost exclusively from your legs / quads and there is very little arm pull / hip hinge in there?
That's not a criticism by the way, it clearly works very well for you.
I tend to row in a 19-25 spm range. One thing I have noticed is if my HR creeps above my MAF number I can often bring it down again by changing cadence - faster or slower. It feels like the difference between standing still after a set of swings or active rest - my HR drops way faster with active rest.
GeoffreyLevens
Level 6 Valued Member
Running 'may reduce knee inflammation and protect against osteoarthritis'
"...New study from Brigham Young University in the US, which has challenged established assumptions that long-distance running increases wear and tear on the knee joints by suggesting the opposite is in fact true.
How running can benefit joint health
For this study, published in the European Journal of Applied Physiology, inflammatory markers in the knee joint fluid of several healthy men and women aged 18 to 35 were measured both before and after a running session.
It was found that two cytokines named GM-CSF and IL-15, which are common markers of knee joint inflammation, actually decreased in concentration after 30 minutes of running, whereas levels stayed the same when the subjects were not running.
This offers evidence that running could be considered chondroprotective, meaning exercise can help to delay the onset of degenerative joint diseases such as osteoarthritis."
How running can benefit joint health
For this study, published in the European Journal of Applied Physiology, inflammatory markers in the knee joint fluid of several healthy men and women aged 18 to 35 were measured both before and after a running session.
It was found that two cytokines named GM-CSF and IL-15, which are common markers of knee joint inflammation, actually decreased in concentration after 30 minutes of running, whereas levels stayed the same when the subjects were not running.
This offers evidence that running could be considered chondroprotective, meaning exercise can help to delay the onset of degenerative joint diseases such as osteoarthritis."
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
Here are some statistics on today's rowing:
as you can see, the average is 35 strokesthe heart rate profile:
10km rowing - 43:48min - 128avg/135max - I think I use the legs much. As I said, my torso stays almost at the same angle the whole time, at least with lower hr rowing. After the pull of my arms is finished, I dorsiflex my feet and pull slightly with my hamstrings and I bring my hips towards my feet, and I do not reach forward with my arms. Surely I could get a much greater distance with each stroke.
I have to admit, that I did not deal with rowing technique. So far rowing is not a means to itself, that I am aiming for a specific time for a distance, but I find it a great tool to build some aerobic capacity. I can bring the heart rate up and down at will through exertion. The rower is just pure heart, lungs and muscle work. I am amazed, what only a minute more or less on a 10km makes a difference in heart rates and PRE, as a minute in relation to 45 min looks not that much, only 2,2%. But the PRE feels like say 15% or so.
banzaiengr
Level 6 Valued Member
@Harald Motz , have you done any 2000 meter rows for time? Just curious and if you've seen improvement with them. As far as fitness I would think a 5K would be better but I guess the 2K is the benchmark.
Harald Motz
Level 8 Valued Member
… not yet...because….it's hard...
Bret S.
Level 9 Valued Member
I can't wait to get started with some rowing, it'll be a great tool for CVS work. I'm assuming your MAF is around 140 or so if I remember correctly, it seems like the rower can fine tune HR. My MAF is 121 + 5 I believe, so the idea of rowing at just under MAF for an hour would seem to yield some great CV benefits.
Sean M
Level 7 Valued Member
I rowed freshman year in college. Got in great shape from it - I was a skinny kid/teen and this built some muscle, and I probably had single-digit body fat. I wasn't tall or muscular enough to be useful in a heavyweight crew, but was the heaviest you could be for lightweight (so had to produce more power to overcome the drag I contributed to the shell).
Loved the longer races in the fall, hated the erg work over the winter (but it certainly did the job), and could take or leave the sprints in the spring.
A girl who walked on the team with me as a novice (this is 2005) went on to compete in London in 2012; her crew took 4th, barely missed the bronze. So she had quite a journey!
Loved the longer races in the fall, hated the erg work over the winter (but it certainly did the job), and could take or leave the sprints in the spring.
A girl who walked on the team with me as a novice (this is 2005) went on to compete in London in 2012; her crew took 4th, barely missed the bronze. So she had quite a journey!
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