Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic

[Harald Motz]

It seems like LED work offers something unique, though, and I'm wondering why that is.

high heart rates are no indication for developing "endurance" per se. In LED there there happens blood flow with little restrictions, there is steady continuous power demand with continuous gas exchange, there is steady state homeostasis, relatively little involvement of fast fibers, lots of slow fibers where mitochondria party with carbs, fat and oxygen and because they have so much fun together they are getting more....

A+A+LED is better than A+A alone.

in my biased thinking A+A alone is better than LED alone, for people who seek either or.
A+A+LED it is.

 

[jhpowers]

At the risk of asking a dumb question...better for what?...what goals do A+A and A+A+LED move us towards? What adaptations do they facilitate?

Full Disclosure: I've been doing A+A + walking/running. Still trying to dial in an approach to this way of working. I've noticed striking progressive changes in body composition..I'm not sure how much to attribute to this mode of training. I've also cut out ETOH and am being a little more careful with my diet. I'm curious about whether this is a common experience.

 

[Harald Motz]

At the risk of asking a dumb question...better for what?...what goals do A+A and A+A+LED move us towards? What adaptations do they facilitate?

better for building strength, power and endurance in a well ballanced way in a long term sustainable approach with the least amount of risk to detriment health through training stress.

The goals or lack thereof is totally individual. But the physiological adaptation is to be be getting more aerobic in general even to some degree in fast(er) fibers.

 

[Al Ciampa]

At the risk of asking a dumb question...better for what?...what goals do A+A and A+A+LED move us towards? What adaptations do they facilitate?

My focus is outdoor work and soldiering, so anything I endorse supports this. I can't speak for anyone else.

There is nothing like a mitochondria party, Harald.

 

[Snowman]

better for what?

+1 what Harald said. As someone who moved through the various phases of Tabata protocols, Crossfit, and a variety of other combined strength and conditioning paradigms, I think about it this way: A+A delivers the results that HIIT promised. Unlike HIIT, A+A keeps delivering them, year after year.

@aciampa and @Harald Motz, thanks for the clarification. A slow-twitch fiber mitochondria party actually makes sense.

 

[Sean M]

A slow-twitch fiber mitochondria party

That would be quite a Halloween costume...

 

[Harald Motz]

this is an example of today's longer session of how an A+A can look like on a rower. There are quite some possibilities to make it same but different.

rowing 100min 22km 8hard pulls emom for 45total

Its a nice way, to work on both energy system spectrums: anaerobic alactic pathway and aerobic recovery pathway. These are the essential parts of A+A: the work, and how it is done and the active rest and how it is done.

+1 what Harald said. As someone who moved through the various phases of Tabata protocols, Crossfit, and a variety of other combined strength and conditioning paradigms, I think about it this way: A+A delivers the results that HIIT promised. Unlike HIIT, A+A keeps delivering them, year after year.

It is a case for our "modern age" total marketing internet machinery. Availability of all information be it "good" or "bad" citing and copying and pasting "real science" to outsmart the more introvert mostly by producing much noise.

Intense stuff is some snake poison that works great for short periods of time for those who can handle it. Maybe it would only make sense eventually to people who want to compete. To handle it you have to healthily build a base, and A+A does that. That takes time and patience and not worrying about hitting a plateau, or to stagnate, or not improving for some periods of time. In the end it may just boils down of making positive experience with a paradigm to foster faith in it.

 

[kiwipete]

this is an example of today's longer session of how an A+A can look like on a rower. There are quite some possibilities to make it same but different.

View attachment 6772 rowing 100min 22km 8hard pulls emom for 45total

Its a nice way, to work on both energy system spectrums: anaerobic alactic pathway and aerobic recovery pathway. These are the essential parts of A+A: the work, and how it is done and the active rest and how it is done.


It is a case for our "modern age" total marketing internet machinery. Availability of all information be it "good" or "bad" citing and copying and pasting "real science" to outsmart the more introvert mostly by producing much noise.

Intense stuff is some snake poison that works great for short periods of time for those who can handle it. Maybe it would only make sense eventually to people who want to compete. To handle it you have to healthily build a base, and A+A does that. That takes time and patience and not worrying about hitting a plateau, or to stagnate, or not improving for some periods of time. In the end it may just boils down of making positive experience with a paradigm to foster faith in it.

Hi Harald!

Very interesting...could this rowing approach to A+A be done with running I wonder??

 

[Harald Motz]

Very interesting...could this rowing approach to A+A be done with running I wonder??

The basic, essential, reasonable and just common sense A+A guidelines in my opinion work for almost every exercise in my opinion. To practice with these guidelines enable to build up quality volume with a good amount of intensity over time. The guidelines can be applied to grinds too. If it is "real" A+A per definition then probably not.

But running could be a great fit in my opinion I will do some in the future. Or a bike, or airdyne, ski or ski erg, swimming, battling ropes, versa climber, hitting the bag… I think the nice thing with these endurance activities is, that on the one hand you can explode on the other hand you don't have to worry about what to do as active rest: just keep spinning. Simple as that.

 

[DrFierce]

Rowing is actually a great device to build endurance adaptations for the whole body. It is also a great tool to build power. Lately I like Alactics and Aerobics on the C2. That is a really cool tool to blend them together just perfectly. Doing so, an hour on the rower flies by. .

this is an example of today's longer session of how an A+A can look like on a rower. There are quite some possibilities to make it same but different.

View attachment 6772 rowing 100min 22km 8hard pulls emom for 45total

Its a nice way, to work on both energy system spectrums: anaerobic alactic pathway and aerobic recovery pathway. These are the essential parts of A+A: the work, and how it is done and the active rest and how it is done.

@Harald Motz I've learned a lot from you in this thread and am more curious about the A+A training you are doing on your rower. Could you comment a bit more on this?

In the image above it look like there are 5 HR peaks on your alactic bursts, but in the text you describe 8 had pulls EMOM. Could you explain this a bit more. Are you doing a hard row or two, coming back down in HR, then doing more?

 

[Bret S.]

Hey Doc, not Harald but each spike is 8 hard pulls (this time).. If you look top left of the chart you see the elapsed time of 1hr 40min total, his pulls are emom

 

[DrFierce]

Aah thanks so much @Bret S !

 

[Harald Motz]

I've learned a lot from you in this thread and am more curious about the A+A training you are doing on your rower. Could you comment a bit more on this?

In the image above it look like there are 5 HR peaks on your alactic bursts, but in the text you describe 8 had pulls EMOM. Could you explain this a bit more. Are you doing a hard row or two, coming back down in HR, then doing more?

Bret has explained it right. These eight pulls are near all out, they take me around 9 seconds. Take for an alactic power output the 10 second mark, plus minus some seconds, depending on the exercise intensity, recovering ability...and take your time it takes you to recover to repeat the effort. I found for myself lately, that around 8 pulls every minute on the minute is just about right. When I do my snatch repeats recovery takes longer, as there is a great eccentric load the rower does not provide. Therefore you can do row repeats relatively frequently in a week, when rowing is easy on your back.

It is really enjoyable on the rower to play a bit with the number of repeats, number of hard pulls collect them into some series, or do more repeats in a row, or begin with 15min or 30min of easy rowing and putting some repeats on the end. Personally it feels as if an hour doing rowing repeats feels like say 30 min of steady state, kind of. Make A+A a serious playground and see how it goes.

10km rowing

Could pull steadily and stable throughout and managed to breathe through my nose exclusively

30min cool down directly after the 10km. An important aspect after some effort to be getting into aerobic recovery mode. I pulled stroke on stroke through the blue zone over the last two years. That is my default zone I gravitated relatively quickly when I re- started endurance training, as I found MAF doing frequently "hardcore"

Third kind of hard(er) 10km row in a row. average hr quite a bit higher. By now I have nice standardized measurement to compare aerobic progress over time. The up to 99% perfectly working Polar is a great high tech device.

I've learned a lot from you in this thread and am more curious about the A+A training you are doing on your rower. Could you comment a bit more on this?

Thank you very much for your kind words, this A+A stuff seems to be my passion, and it took me almost three years to get a grasp, why Al made the distinction between "Repeat" and "Set" or "Interval". It is not only for semantics.

 

[jhpowers]

So, im experimenting with this stuff. I’m doing some running/walking coupled with A+ A snatch workouts. My MAF number is 130. When I run I quickly pop up to a heart rate over 140, but when I walk it is hard to keep my heart rate close to the MAF without going over. What I’ve been doing is walking primarily but then when my HR drops to around 120 I do a 10 second burst of running. My reasoning has been that it is still A+A as long as I keep the bursts under 10 seconds. Would this be analogous to your 8 hard pulls...staying just under MAF heart rate with 10 second bursts of greater effort. This also allows me to keep my walking HR up.

After years of strength training, I’m afraid that I don’t have enough of an aerobics base to even jog and stay under my MAF number.

 

[Al Ciampa]

So, im experimenting with this stuff. I’m doing some running/walking coupled with A+ A snatch workouts. My MAF number is 130. When I run I quickly pop up to a heart rate over 140, but when I walk it is hard to keep my heart rate close to the MAF without going over. What I’ve been doing is walking primarily but then when my HR drops to around 120 I do a 10 second burst of running. My reasoning has been that it is still A+A as long as I keep the bursts under 10 seconds. Would this be analogous to your 8 hard pulls...staying just under MAF heart rate with 10 second bursts of greater effort. This also allows me to keep my walking HR up.

After years of strength training, I’m afraid that I don’t have enough of an aerobics base to even jog and stay under my MAF number.

Practice running slow, or jogging. I started at 19min miles. I can walk almost 14min miles, unloaded. It’ll come.

 

[offwidth]

So, im experimenting with this stuff. I’m doing some running/walking coupled with A+ A snatch workouts. My MAF number is 130. When I run I quickly pop up to a heart rate over 140, but when I walk it is hard to keep my heart rate close to the MAF without going over. What I’ve been doing is walking primarily but then when my HR drops to around 120 I do a 10 second burst of running. My reasoning has been that it is still A+A as long as I keep the bursts under 10 seconds. Would this be analogous to your 8 hard pulls...staying just under MAF heart rate with 10 second bursts of greater effort. This also allows me to keep my walking HR up.

After years of strength training, I’m afraid that I don’t have enough of an aerobics base to even jog and stay under my MAF number.

@aciampa is right. It takes patience... a lot of it. I have been basically and endurance athlete for decades, and I still had a hard time with converting to the whole 'MAF' concept. But I stuck with it and am way better off for it.

 

[Bret S.]

My MAF number is 130. When I run I quickly pop up to a heart rate over 140, but when I walk it is hard to keep my heart rate close to the MAF without going over. What I’ve been doing is walking primarily but then when my HR drops to around 120 I do a 10 second burst of running.

What pace are you walking at? I'm averaging 15.25 mi/min unloaded pace lately with a MAF of 121, I can't get near MAF walking unloaded, while doing this my HR stays lower 90's which is ok. Later I'll get a rucking setup going.
Walking in minimal thin sole shoes is strengthening my feet and helping to heal an injured calf muscle. I'd like to run some but the calf needs time right now.
Rowing is great to dial HR by adjusting stroke pace, there are many ways to skin this cat. Lots of LED is like chicken soup for my body.

 

[kiwipete]

So, im experimenting with this stuff. I’m doing some running/walking coupled with A+ A snatch workouts. My MAF number is 130. When I run I quickly pop up to a heart rate over 140, but when I walk it is hard to keep my heart rate close to the MAF without going over. What I’ve been doing is walking primarily but then when my HR drops to around 120 I do a 10 second burst of running. My reasoning has been that it is still A+A as long as I keep the bursts under 10 seconds. Would this be analogous to your 8 hard pulls...staying just under MAF heart rate with 10 second bursts of greater effort. This also allows me to keep my walking HR up.

After years of strength training, I’m afraid that I don’t have enough of an aerobics base to even jog and stay under my MAF number.

One thing I've found to keep HR low when jogging is use a metronome set at 180 beats per min. Each beat is then matched to your steps... it'll feel like you are taking a million baby steps as you jog and you'll be going at fast walking speed. The best part is that this starts building the 'elasticity' in your lower legs which makes running actually enjoyable and more 'skill' like

Check these links out!

http://www.championseverywhere.com/niko-niko-pace-gentle-path-success/

Slow Jogging: “Run with Smile, Midfoot Strike” | Natural Running Center

 

[Harald Motz]

@kiwipete : thanks for the links. Now I know what I am doing endurance wise and can give a name to it even while prefering dead pan rather than smiling. I always have the impression, that lots of locomotion can almost not be slow enough.

 

[Nasser M]

Many thanks @Harald Motz and @aciampa for the free info. I have couple of questions please:-

1) if i do swing as my alactic move, what is the best strength exercise to go with ( bent press, BW dips, KB press, BW push ups..etc) and how to program it?

2) when to know the weight need to be increased into the next bell?

3) how to keep myself motivated? For example i am gave powerlifting background, i motivate myself when i see my numbers goes up, bodybuilding keep them selves motivated by gaining size, S&S warrios keep them motivated by moving the bells up...etc.

Apologies if the questions were asked before.

Many thanks again