Alactic + Aerobic

Discussion in 'Kettlebell' started by Harald Motz, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Neal Sivula

    Neal Sivula More than 500 posts

    I do the traditional S&S warmup (Goblet squats, bridges, halos), but for training, Snatch only. Unless the hands need a break.
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  2. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    and running stride and posture. Running easy and relaxed frequently is like a gift.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
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  3. Marty S

    Marty S Second Post

    This is a great thread for a new person like me. Thanks for the thoughtful contributions from everyone. I have similar goals as to what is stated - general health and conditioning, playing with four young kids, keep up on strength and mobility as I roll into my 40's.

    I just finished up Dan John's 10,000 challenge. Prior to that I worked up to S&S standards with 80lb.

    Based on Al's article on Rucking (a few years back but I just read it), I walk my dog most mornings 2.5-3.5 miles with a 25lb pack on. Not true rucking to a t but it gets my heart rate up slightly compared to no pack.

    My questions: I do not currently run or haven't really ever. But it sounds like 'there is no getting around' needing to incorporate some kind of slow jogging for an increasing time?

    Also, once back from a vacation in a few weeks, I was going to start in on Al's Serious Endurance plan. Am I correct that I would be better getting into some locomotion (running) habit. Or is it still a good option for the above-stated goals compared to other options (A+A, trying to make Sinister goal, the kind of training Harald refers to on this thread).

    Again, thanks for a great and thoughtful forum here at Strongfirst!
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  4. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Forum Administrator Senior Certified Instructor

    @Marty S, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

  5. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    Yes, slowly start a running habit while continuing kettlebell work. Al's Serious Endurance plan is a good one. Andrew Read's "Run Strong" is a good reference to get started with running. They will go well together, provided you start easy and slow with the running...
  6. Miguel

    Miguel Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Perhaps that in and of itself alters my views and ideas about strength and fitness. =]

    Sir, you have me by 1 pound, but otherwise we share the same stats. Although of late I've been leaner than usual.
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  7. Marty S

    Marty S Second Post

    So, if I were to synthesize what I'm reading in this thread a few other active ones:

    For general health and strength
    • Get into a regular locomotion program (running and rucking)
    • Use my base of swings and transition towards snatches (which I have never done) using A+A routine
    • Snatches and perhaps some other KB and barbell work (perhaps ES style) will be strength component.
    • Occasionally challenge myself with something like the Serious Endurance or 10,000 KB swing challenge.
    Now, figuring out how to program all of this...
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  8. coolrunnings

    coolrunnings Double-Digit Post Count


    What is strong endurance plan 033c?

  9. The Nail

    The Nail Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    This thread has given me a great deal to contemplate. I'm definitely going to mix in Aerobic work into my training going forward.

    • 'Easy and relaxed' is not a way I've ever thought about running. Most people look like they are on the edge of death when running, so I've never thought I could use it any other way.
    • Looking at the energy system diagram here, I'm beginning to understand how 'easy and relaxed' running would improve A+A. I can't explain it in detail, but the picture is coming into focus, if only a little bit.
    • Running Strong - that doesn't sound like a bad way to run. I like the philosophical idea.

    • I love the sound of this format. I'm in the beginner stage of building my snatch, but I can (again barely) see how only running the snatch could work. And I like the idea of having a reason to get outside more often.
    • I recently read Lind & Thiele's 4th Generation Warfare Handbook. This book put rucking on my brain. It seems a format like this would be a great way to build an elite level of strength and conditioning, and still let a man engage in BJJ or other combat training. I very much want to start BJJ, but I'm committed to the SFG1 now and don't know how to fold them together. One thing at a time, but I'll keep this format in mind. I'm not a soldier and don't play one on the internet, but a primal part of me likes the idea of being combat/fighting ready in case the fecal matter hits the spinning bladed apparatus.

    • Two sexy beast peas (poods?) in a pod :cool:
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  10. Miguel

    Miguel Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Rucking is a great two-birds one stone event in "apocalypse planning" since once we run out of gas we will need to hump our worldly possessions around on our backs. Honestly, I've never been in better shape or stronger by following a LSD aerobic + A+A snatches training plan.

    Perhaps yourself sir, but my face is one only a mother could love. =]

    Good luck with your strength pursuits, sir.
  11. DavThew

    DavThew More than 500 posts

    At what point do the more experienced people on this thread start to see diminishing returns with their A+A work? Has working with a higher number of repeats led to being more tired throught the day? Do you have a predetermined set of repeats or just go until a comfortable stop?
  12. Al Ciampa

    Al Ciampa Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    This is a great question. If you give it enough time, I am sure that you can work all day... but no one has that kind of time to donate to PT alone. Higher volume will only cause fatigue later in the day if: they are too heavy, and/or you forced the accumulation of volume.

    I think that the reconciliation with work and life is snatching moderately heavy, and sometimes heavy, (and sometimes light-er) for an average of 30 repeats; 20 is probably the rock bottom for continued progression.
  13. DavThew

    DavThew More than 500 posts

  14. mark reinke

    mark reinke Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    add me to that list of Al's students who have experienced remarkable outcomes in performance. I do a few backpacking trips a year and one of them with a buddy of mine who is an ultra-runner.
    Not only can I keep up with him, but when it comes to anything that actually requires strength while out on the trail, I am "the guy".
    I never "run out of gas" anymore on the trail, and endurance is never an issue in real life.
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  15. mark reinke

    mark reinke Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    I typically get in 1 long ruck (90+minutes) and 1 short (30-40 min) each week.
    I am doing pull ups and get ups on off days and have been switching back and forth between heavy one hand swings and snatches every couple weeks. I just finished 3 weeks of the Strong Endurance plan 033c (I wanted to get those push ups in) and will switch back to snatching A+A this week.

    In the long run, I am still working towards my 1/2 bodyweight press and OAOLPU, and find that when I am training for those regularly, I find that I cannot sustain the volume or intensity of snatches needed to keep those progressing without having neck/elbow issues.

    I have an event coming up in October that I will prep for by following 3/week snatching and 1-2/week rucking. I'll have to do lots push ups, so I'll be sneaking those in too.

    Would love to hear if y'all have any ideas on formally including push ups in the training.


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  16. Al Ciampa

    Al Ciampa Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    Mark, the program I am planning on outlining in my book is snatches, push ups, and run. We can fit your rucking in as a substitute. I think you'll like it!

    Email me; though I though that we already discussed this.
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  17. mark reinke

    mark reinke Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    @aciampa will do. No max rep testing in this one... Just lots of them with a 35 lb pack on :)
  18. jyork

    jyork Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    @aciampa After I return home from a year-long, all-expenses paid trip to the Horn of Africa, a plan of "snatches, push ups, and run (or ruck)" sounds perfect! I look forward to seeing the book! I'm currently 5 weeks into the 12 weeks of fun that is Kettlebell Muscle - and I'll finish up right about the time I go home. Decompress for a week and then hopefully on to your program.
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  19. mark reinke

    mark reinke Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    033c is one of the plans from strong endurance. It involves swings and push-ups.
    One of my training partners went to the event in Denver and we've been trying them out.
  20. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    when the returns start to deminish can be opaque to define.
    not so much after a session, but high volume weeks can take its toll, as one can feel fatigue as it accumulates with volume, obviously seen on hr readings as "well recoverred" makes for a calm hr-reading.

    Regarding recoverability I am amazed about the effects of my aerobic work. I am doing 500-700 heavy ballistics a week lately, and I firmly believe and feel so far, that lsd make the returns diminish not so fast.
    Most sessions with the 40k fall in the 20-30 range, and I generally listen to the feel of my hands.

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