Alactic + Aerobic

Marty S

Second Post
This is a great thread for a new person like me. Thanks for the thoughtful contributions from everyone. I have similar goals as to what is stated - general health and conditioning, playing with four young kids, keep up on strength and mobility as I roll into my 40's.

I just finished up Dan John's 10,000 challenge. Prior to that I worked up to S&S standards with 80lb.

Based on Al's article on Rucking (a few years back but I just read it), I walk my dog most mornings 2.5-3.5 miles with a 25lb pack on. Not true rucking to a t but it gets my heart rate up slightly compared to no pack.

My questions: I do not currently run or haven't really ever. But it sounds like 'there is no getting around' needing to incorporate some kind of slow jogging for an increasing time?

Also, once back from a vacation in a few weeks, I was going to start in on Al's Serious Endurance plan. Am I correct that I would be better getting into some locomotion (running) habit. Or is it still a good option for the above-stated goals compared to other options (A+A, trying to make Sinister goal, the kind of training Harald refers to on this thread).

Again, thanks for a great and thoughtful forum here at Strongfirst!
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
Am I correct that I would be better getting into some locomotion (running) habit. Or is it still a good option for the above-stated goals compared to other options (A+A, trying to make Sinister goal, the kind of training Harald refers to on this thread).
Yes, slowly start a running habit while continuing kettlebell work. Al's Serious Endurance plan is a good one. Andrew Read's "Run Strong" is a good reference to get started with running. They will go well together, provided you start easy and slow with the running...
 

Miguel

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I would footnote this to add that this dude is not a weekend warrior, recreational athlete or desk jockey.
Perhaps that in and of itself alters my views and ideas about strength and fitness. =]

I'm 5'7", 174 pounds, 32" waist. Not fat, but not lean.
Sir, you have me by 1 pound, but otherwise we share the same stats. Although of late I've been leaner than usual.
 

Marty S

Second Post
So, if I were to synthesize what I'm reading in this thread a few other active ones:

For general health and strength
  • Get into a regular locomotion program (running and rucking)
  • Use my base of swings and transition towards snatches (which I have never done) using A+A routine
  • Snatches and perhaps some other KB and barbell work (perhaps ES style) will be strength component.
  • Occasionally challenge myself with something like the Serious Endurance or 10,000 KB swing challenge.
Now, figuring out how to program all of this...
 

coolrunnings

Double-Digit Post Count
Congrats Harald.

I'm about to see how rucking plays into the snatches.

I'm not rucking as frequently as @Harald Motz is running... more like 1-2/week. I also just finished three weeks of Strong Endurance plan 033c.

I'm shifting to A + A snatches next week and will compare to my last round of it this past winter
Mark

What is strong endurance plan 033c?

Thanks
 

The Nail

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
This thread has given me a great deal to contemplate. I'm definitely going to mix in Aerobic work into my training going forward.

Running easy and relaxed frequently is a like a gift.
Andrew Read's "Run Strong" is a good reference to get started with running.
  • 'Easy and relaxed' is not a way I've ever thought about running. Most people look like they are on the edge of death when running, so I've never thought I could use it any other way.
  • Looking at the energy system diagram here, I'm beginning to understand how 'easy and relaxed' running would improve A+A. I can't explain it in detail, but the picture is coming into focus, if only a little bit.
  • Running Strong - that doesn't sound like a bad way to run. I like the philosophical idea.
I ruck 3-5 times a week and Snatch A&A 3 times weekly.
  • I love the sound of this format. I'm in the beginner stage of building my snatch, but I can (again barely) see how only running the snatch could work. And I like the idea of having a reason to get outside more often.
  • I recently read Lind & Thiele's 4th Generation Warfare Handbook. This book put rucking on my brain. It seems a format like this would be a great way to build an elite level of strength and conditioning, and still let a man engage in BJJ or other combat training. I very much want to start BJJ, but I'm committed to the SFG1 now and don't know how to fold them together. One thing at a time, but I'll keep this format in mind. I'm not a soldier and don't play one on the internet, but a primal part of me likes the idea of being combat/fighting ready in case the fecal matter hits the spinning bladed apparatus.

Sir, you have me by 1 pound, but otherwise we share the same stats.
  • Two sexy beast peas (poods?) in a pod :cool:
 

Miguel

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
but a primal part of me likes the idea of being combat/fighting ready in case the fecal matter hits the spinning bladed apparatus.
Rucking is a great two-birds one stone event in "apocalypse planning" since once we run out of gas we will need to hump our worldly possessions around on our backs. Honestly, I've never been in better shape or stronger by following a LSD aerobic + A+A snatches training plan.

Two sexy beast peas (poods?) in a pod
Perhaps yourself sir, but my face is one only a mother could love. =]

Good luck with your strength pursuits, sir.
 

DavThew

More than 500 posts
At what point do the more experienced people on this thread start to see diminishing returns with their A+A work? Has working with a higher number of repeats led to being more tired throught the day? Do you have a predetermined set of repeats or just go until a comfortable stop?
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
At what point do the more experienced people on this thread start to see diminishing returns with their A+A work? Has working with a higher number of repeats led to being more tired throught the day? Do you have a predetermined set of repeats or just go until a comfortable stop?
This is a great question. If you give it enough time, I am sure that you can work all day... but no one has that kind of time to donate to PT alone. Higher volume will only cause fatigue later in the day if: they are too heavy, and/or you forced the accumulation of volume.

I think that the reconciliation with work and life is snatching moderately heavy, and sometimes heavy, (and sometimes light-er) for an average of 30 repeats; 20 is probably the rock bottom for continued progression.
 

mark reinke

Double-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
This sounds deceptively simple, but Neal rucks with 45 - 65 lb for 30-90 minutes, and snatches 32-36kg for 16-40 repeats of 5. Day after day, week after week, month after month. Some serious work and capacity built from smart, slow building. True A+A+LSD work -- and one of our best examples to follow! Along with @Miguel, @Harald Motz , and others... basically we do what @aciampa guides us to do, and it works incredibly well for both performance AND health.
add me to that list of Al's students who have experienced remarkable outcomes in performance. I do a few backpacking trips a year and one of them with a buddy of mine who is an ultra-runner.
Not only can I keep up with him, but when it comes to anything that actually requires strength while out on the trail, I am "the guy".
I never "run out of gas" anymore on the trail, and endurance is never an issue in real life.
 

mark reinke

Double-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
@mark reinke I ruck 3-5 times a week and Snatch A&A 3 times weekly. I'll be very interested to hear how it works for you.
I typically get in 1 long ruck (90+minutes) and 1 short (30-40 min) each week.
I am doing pull ups and get ups on off days and have been switching back and forth between heavy one hand swings and snatches every couple weeks. I just finished 3 weeks of the Strong Endurance plan 033c (I wanted to get those push ups in) and will switch back to snatching A+A this week.

In the long run, I am still working towards my 1/2 bodyweight press and OAOLPU, and find that when I am training for those regularly, I find that I cannot sustain the volume or intensity of snatches needed to keep those progressing without having neck/elbow issues.

I have an event coming up in October that I will prep for by following 3/week snatching and 1-2/week rucking. I'll have to do lots push ups, so I'll be sneaking those in too.

Would love to hear if y'all have any ideas on formally including push ups in the training.

Best,

Mark
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
I just finished 3 weeks of the Strong Endurance plan 033c (I wanted to get those push ups in) and will switch back to snatching A+A this week.
Mark, the program I am planning on outlining in my book is snatches, push ups, and run. We can fit your rucking in as a substitute. I think you'll like it!

Would love to hear if y'all have any ideas on formally including push ups in the training.
Email me; though I though that we already discussed this.
 

mark reinke

Double-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
Mark, the program I am planning on outlining in my book is snatches, push ups, and run. We can fit your rucking in as a substitute. I think you'll like it!



Email me; though I though that we already discussed this.
@aciampa will do. No max rep testing in this one... Just lots of them with a 35 lb pack on :)
 

jyork

Double-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
@aciampa After I return home from a year-long, all-expenses paid trip to the Horn of Africa, a plan of "snatches, push ups, and run (or ruck)" sounds perfect! I look forward to seeing the book! I'm currently 5 weeks into the 12 weeks of fun that is Kettlebell Muscle - and I'll finish up right about the time I go home. Decompress for a week and then hopefully on to your program.
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
people on this thread start to see diminishing returns with their A+A work?
when the returns start to deminish can be opaque to define.
Has working with a higher number of repeats led to being more tired throught the day?
not so much after a session, but high volume weeks can take its toll, as one can feel fatigue as it accumulates with volume, obviously seen on hr readings as "well recoverred" makes for a calm hr-reading.

Regarding recoverability I am amazed about the effects of my aerobic work. I am doing 500-700 heavy ballistics a week lately, and I firmly believe and feel so far, that lsd make the returns diminish not so fast.
Do you have a predetermined set of repeats or just go until a comfortable stop?
Most sessions with the 40k fall in the 20-30 range, and I generally listen to the feel of my hands.
 
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