Alactic + Aerobic

Discussion in 'Kettlebell' started by Harald Motz, Sep 1, 2017.

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  1. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    the one arm snatch may not be the all end, but maybe it is…
    I can mostly attest to the 1h snatch. As I used it the past three years and still use it. Because it convinced me in so many ways, and I have no doubt that it will serve me well in the future. Sometimes I think that I still do them, because my hands have toughened to the extent that they still rip from time to time. Apart from blisters here and there doing so many snatches over and over is against the "fitness" laws.

    in the famous "limited to just one exercise" thought experiment the (heavy) 1h snatch would be it. With A+A guidelines you can explore your own realm.

    then why not? 2-3 reps per repeat, recover and repeat. Or double cleans. Or the clean and jerk. When the mobility and technique is good one can start to build volume over time.

    The protocol is blue-collar work through and through: punch in, do your work, and punch out. There are no “gym” goals; the only goal is to make you a stronger and more enduring you. It is work that is intense for short period of time, followed by a rest period while you prepare to do more work of the same kind. Conjure the images of loading a truck, chopping wood, farming, working on your own home improvements—you move to accelerate loads, then recover during your body weight movement back to the next load. The relatively short work period combined with a sufficient recovery period, in the context of extended sessions is what allows A+A training to increase strength-endurance while improving health. This method of training increases your biological resiliency rather than depleting it.
    from:
    A + A Training – Be Well and Strong
     
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  2. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Exactly...why not?
    //
    Is the jewel in the 1H snatch or is the jewel in the explosiveness and power output. If the explosiveness, I would think using two hands would be the objective as more acceleration/velocity/power can be obtained. Of course the snatch provides additional benefits but could also me restricting other benefits. Self-imposing limits on movements or lateralness is, in my mind, a restriction only to achieve objectives in addition to the energy system training - which is fine as long as it doesn't detract from the energy system training.

    What I'm getting at is to help reiterate that A+A can be done more than one way and I wouldn't want someone to not receive the energy system training benefits because of a self imposed limitation to 1H snatches in aspiration for those additional benefits prioritized ahead of the energy system training. If grip strength for example does not correlate to the power output of the body, there are ways to modify the methods to meet the energy system training intent of A+A - or at least I think so...
     
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  3. Snowman

    Snowman Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Explosiveness, certainly. There does seem to be some neat things that happen with unilateral loading and moving into the overhead position, and the 1H snatch combines all of those things fairly well. The only real issue I see with the double snatch is the necessary shoulder mobility. I would imagine the results would be pretty similar to doing A+A training with the C&J (as Herald implied), especially if you're lowing the 'bells into the front rack between snatches.

    Definitely. When I started, I was doing 2H swings for the very same reason of grip strength. I think I bugged the heck out of Al because I kept doing his 1H swing protocols with a mix of 1H and 2H swings. They still worked though. I've also experimented with a handful of other kettlebell ballistics, and even a few grinds. The cream rises to the top, and as such I've been mostly snatching for a while now. If my shoulders were shot, I would do swings. If I didn't have any weights I would do sprints. I think we can agree that the principles exist independent of any specific exercise or piece of equipment.
     
  4. rickyw

    rickyw More than 500 posts

    Amen!
     
  5. Manuel Fortin

    Manuel Fortin Triple-Digit Post Count

    Here is a programming question for those who have more experience than me with A+A snatches.

    I have been doing snatches in an A+A style for close to 3 months now. I say "style" as I started with the 24, which needed sets of 6 to raise my heart rate enough. These were a bit long with a weight a bit too low to be purely A+A. I progressed to the point where I can now use only the 32 for sets of 4, which is probably the right weight for A+A for me. Sets of 5 are too demanding. I tried it once and lost power at around rep 70.

    In December I had an life dictated deload as I had to travel for business. However, I have been training 3 times a week now for 6 consecutive weeks and feel a bit tired. I will rest a bit, that's OK, but do others find that they need to deload or take days off with these snatches? Did I push too hard? Should I wave the volume from week to week? I already wave the volume in a week in a 100/120/80 reps fashion now, with a volume that increased gradually over the last 6 weeks. Any suggestion is welcome. I have no problem in playing it by ear and take a few days off once in a while, if that is not counter-productive.

    Goals are, in priority order:
    - Staying in shape, or even better, improving conditioning, until I start playing tennis in 3 months. At the level I play, most rallies are not long enough to be glycolytic. It's all about being explosive and recovering rapidly. That's why I thought that A+A snatches would be a good fit.
    - Getting stronger. I don't know if that will happen this year, but I would like to eventually snatch the 40. I find it very satisfying to boss around a weight that is close to half my body weight. I can do getups with that bell and hope to snatch it eventually.
    - Experiment a new type of program.

    Other than that, I was aching in many different places after the last tennis season, and most of it is gone now, so the snatches seem to have a healing affect on me. The more I snatch, the better all my joints feel.
     
  6. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    Hi Manuel,

    your approach looks really good overall. You could also wave from week to week, a bit of de-loading is not detrimental. Sets of four are o.k. You can bring in more variability or "training effects" by occasionally 2 days in a row snatching or even three sometimes, when you are up to it and have some time you may go for 150-200 snatches here and there, or going on the minute. Just go by feel, organically. Just expand your snatch realm slowly over time. Accumulation is the name of the game.

    ...and remember the equation is Alactic + Aerobic. If you are not doing it already easy locomotion and breathing helps recovery from the snatches after repeats and after sessions.
     
  7. Provx

    Provx Double-Digit Post Count

    How many total reps of snatches is a good number to start with and how many is a target for max reps per session? Something like 100 to start no more than 200 max even for experienced snatchers?

    Or is setting a workout session for 20 to 30 minutes a better way to approach it and dont worry about your reps
     
  8. rickyw

    rickyw More than 500 posts

    I’ve done as few as 60 reps in a session and as many as 230 once I had built volume over months. Others have done up to 420 reps in a session in sets of 5 reps.

    Ideally between 80-120 reps in a session to start, or lower if you are doing sets of 3-4 reps
     
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  9. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    Usually the volume is waved and a deload week every 4th week or so, with about half the volume of the heaviest volume weeks. Yes, waving the volume from week to week seems to work well, maybe slightly more than what you have been.

    I would say go for a certian number of repeats, not a certain time.

    Total to start with, if you have no problem doing 100 total snatches in a training session with your snatch test bell, for instance, then start with about 24 repeats of 5 snatches (120 total snatches) with a bell 4kg heavier than your snatch test bell, and/or as tolerated work to 8kg heavier than your snatch test bell, and gradually expand, while waving the volume from session to session, your sessions towards 36 or even 40 repeats (200 total snatches) with some days a lower number like 12 or 16 repeats. More than 200 has been done by a few, as @rickyw mentioned, but it's a lot when you're using a heavier bell, so that's a rare event.

    You can also alternate repeats with two different sized kettlebells if you're not up to using the heavier one for significant volume.
     
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  10. Manuel Fortin

    Manuel Fortin Triple-Digit Post Count

    @Anna C , @Harald Motz Thank you for your answers. I will implement the voluntary deloads and wave the volume a bit more, instead of having a straight ramp.

    Sets of 4 are done about EMOM, without pushing. I thought that I was ready for sets of 5, but my only try told me no. Maybe next month. I'm almost there. The plan is that when sets of 6 get easy, I should be able to start working the 40 in slowly. This may or may not happen before tennis starts. I hope to be able to snatch once or twice a week during the season so that I don't lose too much strength.

    I already do nose breathing and fast and loose between sets, mixed with walking in circles in my garage. I kept that from doing S+S a few years ago.

    As to locomotion, we have a really bad winter here with not much snow and a lot of ice, so anything outside is really a pain. Time constraints make it difficult to go to a facility to train. I know, excuses, excuses... Maybe I should buy a used treadmill if the weather stays the same. When there is snow, I play a lot outside with my daughter (now 8), so that is my aerobic activity. We're supposed to have a nice storm this weekend, so this part of my training may be taken care of soon.

    @Provx

    I basically started just like Anna said, with the 24 twice a week and once a week did a session with the 32. The 32 was very heavy for me, so I did sets of 3 until they were no longer powerful, so lower reps and more rest, and got my volume from the other sessions. As to number of reps, that's easy. Once you lose your snap, you're done, with any bell. Once a week I would go for higher volume, but always stopped when power was reduced. That was the "hard" session with the lower weight when I worked with the 24 and 32 mixed. The medium session was about 80 percent of the hard session that came before. This worked very well for me.
     
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  11. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Bill Bowerman is well known for hard/easy training for the University of Oregon track and x-country and has turned out some phenomenal athletes. However, alternative track training approaches use many moderate intervals and have shown quite successful also.

    Thoughts on the commonalities and differences of these two approaches to your A+A experiences?
     
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  12. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

    Hello,

    Could this kind of move, performed here by Hindu wrestler, be a good idea for A+A training ?


    Kind regards,

    Pet'
     
  13. WxHerk

    WxHerk More than 300 posts Certified Instructor

    Why don't you try it and then report if it works or not?
     
  14. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

    Hello,

    Most of the time, A+A training is done using heavy weights. This is why I wanted to know if the power output using this technique is enough or not to get the same effects on the long term.

    Kind regards,

    Pet'
     
  15. WxHerk

    WxHerk More than 300 posts Certified Instructor

    Exactly. I'm quite familiar with A&A and have done all of my A&A snatching the 32kg and occasionally the 36kg. If you are curious about that variation of burpees, then try them out and see if they work. I seriously doubt that @Harald Motz or any other A&A devotee has tried them yet since, as you point out, A&A is done using heavy weights.
     
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  16. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    I would say it could be used as a variation of Strong Endurance / AGT training, but I wouldn't call it A+A.
     
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  17. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

    Hello,

    @Anna C
    Thank you for your answer.

    In your opinion, what number of repetitions should I do before resting ?

    Kind regards,

    Pet'
     
  18. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    It resembles some of the protocols in the Strong Endurance manual, so I will check my SE manual when I get home and see what it says... (remind me in a couple of days if I forget, please).
     
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  19. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

    Hello,

    @Anna C
    Thanks ! This is very kind of you :)

    Kind regards,

    Pet'
     
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  20. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    OK I checked my Strong Endurance manual, and it looks like it could match up to some SE protocols. (Hopefully this is not too much info to share, @Steve Freides).

    For hypertrophy training of the fast & intermediate fibers (SE manual reference, templates #14, #15, #16), you would do this type of exercise at a high tempo, about 80-90% power, for 20-50 sec or 15-30 reps per set. You would rest 8-10 minutes between sets. You could also do series of 2-6 sets resting 3-5 min between sets and 15-20 min between series. In this one your muscle fatigue will be deep fatigue, congestion, and burn.

    For aerobic training of the fast & intermediate fibers (SE manual reference, templates #1, #2, #5), you would do this type of exercise at max tempo, max power, for 5-15 seconds. You would rest about 2.5-3 min between sets, or passing the talk test. You could also do series at a W:R ratio of about 1:3 (so maybe 3-8 reps OTM), with 2-6 in a series (rest about 3 minutes between series), and 5 or less series total. In this version your would be out of breath between sets, but recover between series. In this one your muscle fatigue will be mild to light congestion and no burn.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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