Alactic + Aerobic

Discussion in 'Kettlebell' started by Harald Motz, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Al Ciampa

    Al Ciampa Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    Send me your HR tracks so I know what I’m looking at.
  2. ShawnM

    ShawnM More than 2500 posts

    I apologize if I missed this in one of the over 400 posts on this topic, which is awesome, but how did you all that are using say the snatch increase weight over time. This morning I did my training for the day of 20 rounds of 5 reps with the 28k. After I played around and knocked out a few doubles with the 32 and then a few more doubles with the 36. These were good, clean reps that I was pretty happy with.
    Should I have a day of heavy singles and doubles were I slowly increase the sets of say doubles for a while until I get up to say 30 sets and then drop to maybe 10 sets and increase reps to 3 or 4.
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  3. Al Ciampa

    Al Ciampa Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    There are a few ways to skin this cat, Shawn. Maintain what you have and sub out smaller bites of repeats with the heavier bells but less reps per repeat. You can continue this in a linear fashion until all the repeats are swapped out. Work on increasing reps as well, the point is to keep things organic—let your body guide you through the changes.
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  4. ShawnM

    ShawnM More than 2500 posts

    @Al Ciampa- Thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated. I'll start working with that.
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  5. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    My first 5rx20 snatch with 48kg ten days ago:
    snatch 48kg 5rx20.png
    todays 5rx20 snatch @ 48kg:
    snatch 48k 5rx20.png
    today I completed 100 snatches with 48kg 2:30 minutes faster, and my hr was 13 bpm lower on average. This is a big difference within 10 days.
    My reasoning:
    - in these 10 days it was today my third session with 5rx20 @ 48kg so psychologically I know, that I can "repeat" such a session.
    - in my first two sessions my hands were a bit torn, today my skin was okay even after the session
    - given the fact, that I did the last few days a lot of volume with heavy pushpress singles, A+A style I would not say, that I was totally rested going into todays session so...
    - the factor which has the greatest impact on todays improvement was that I re- introduced easy breathing endurance work lately. I have stated it frequently before but it is worth repeating: easy aerobics is the recovering engine. Between repeats, from session to session. I observed it in the past three years over and over again: "blue zone" work is golden work.

    rowing 10km.png that was my rowing I did immediately after snatching. Rowing through blue. It can be brisk walking, easy cycling, eliptical, easy jogging… just easy.
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  6. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I was just reading in a running book that 60% of max heart rate is ideal for easy work which is pretty low. Substantially lower than the MAF rate even.
  7. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    When I re- introduced aerobics after the "all I need for cardio is kettlebells" I pretty quickly found my most relaxing and enjoyable zone in the 120-130, 65-70% area to do any day. I like to say: MAF is kind of hardcore, at least doing very frequently for say around 45 min +-.

    There are pretty amazing benefits in accumulating easy aerobics to build up good aerobic functioning. There is no way around it like Al Ciampa said somewhere. I find it to be true. It is base training. The base for doing harder stuff, if one has or feels the need doing so.
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  8. offwidth

    offwidth More than 5000 posts

    Well if you go by the HR zones in TFTNA... zone 1 can be as low as 55% HRmax and recovery zone is less than 55%
  9. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Yep. Most influential book so far on my current training template. Seeing the reasoning in the running book of maximum heart stroke force at ~60% and over that starts training different things helped make it more clear as to why.

    TFTNA = "Training for the New Alpinism" for anyone wondering.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
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  10. offwidth

    offwidth More than 5000 posts

    Success leaves tracks....
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  11. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides StrongFirst Director of Community Engagement Staff Member Senior Instructor

    That is about what I do - it's wonderful, enjoyable, repeatable.

  12. Ulven

    Ulven Triple-Digit Post Count

    Hello everyone I've been lurking on the forum and more specifically this thread for 4 or so weeks now (don't recall how I first stumbled upon A+A as a tool, but am glad I did) and since discovering it and doing some reading I've implemented an A+A training protocol using 2 handed swings and a 31 kg (70 lbs.) bell. 6 reps is where I am at now and I just completed a session earlier this morning hitting 30 repeats for the first time. Felt strong and powerful through them all and am happy to hit a high mark for myself personally. I'm thinking that once or maybe twice a week starting tomorrow I will incorporate a slight increase in intensity and go for "on the minute" repeats of one handed swings/snatches starting at 10 or 12 minutes and adding 2 minutes as per the article From "Simple" to Serious Endurance | StrongFirst and other stuff I have read and seen from others.

    I'm considering getting a heart rate monitor to get more specific data points and really ensure I am staying aerobic while swinging and doing my aerobic work which consists of rowing, runs, stairclimber, rucks (once the weather and trail conditions improve).

    While I do believe I've seen personal improvement I am unsure of something(s)/am wanting some feedback or criticism or whatever because conditioning and being able to work all day and so on is a necessity for my job. In my line of work the idea that if you're not left in a heap on the floor about to throw up from whatever bit of PT you just engaged in you wasted your time is fairly common. While there's merit to being mentally tough I struggle to justify doing this type of "simple, but not easy" work when compared to some other folks I work with who do crossfit type workouts/run harder during training and such. And it is difficult to have my words carry weight because in some cases these individuals are in better shape than I am in some aspects. I am hoping this type of training has sound, noticeable carry over into my work when the time comes. Can any of you fine folks speak to this and give me some peace of mind beyond the bit I've seen? I'll happily provide any extra info if needed to get a better picture of myself, my goals, where I am at etc...
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  13. offwidth

    offwidth More than 5000 posts

    Extra info like history (training, sports, injury, etc) is always helpful as are goals; to help frame appropriate answers.

    A+A is a powerful tool, and like all tools; you want to be using the right one for the job at hand. It is also a tool more suited to the 'long view'
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  14. Ulven

    Ulven Triple-Digit Post Count

    Copy that.

    I first started weight training in high school when participating in JV football. Did that for 2 years, then stopped the sport side but became interested in working out largely because it was a way to feel good and better myself, I was a fat kid growing up. Then in junior year found martial arts. Specifically BJJ and a form of kickboxing from Burma, Myanmar, called Lethwei. That was about 9 years ago. stopped striking and sparring because I wanted to be able to form sentences in my 50's and not perpetually wear a diaper. Still practice BJJ when I can and when I am not working since during my season my opportunity to train is pretty limited.

    Mainly used the barbell as my go to tool in the past, found KB's maybe 7 or so years ago and have been on and off with them since. In the past year I've really enhanced and focused (and as a result have seen the best improvements) in my strength and endurance, conditioning etc... Running has become a much loved and dedicated activity of mine in the past few months.

    Related to the running I am currently doing some physical therapist prescribed movements because for a number of years I have felt my gait and posture has been off. When I finally went in to see a professional about 2 weeks ago my suspicions were correct. Basically my right femur is turning in causing my tibia to kick out to stabilize, my right hip is pulling in and down and my shoulder is down and back. Essentially the opposite on my left side. Can provide the specifics terms and drills I was given if that'll give a better picture. Thankfully from images taken by the PT and from his description it isn't severe at all and I've already seen a good bit of progress. Only restriction he gave was no hamstring stretches as I am quite flexible overall, too much so according to him. With that imbalance, and the ramp up of miles I have been putting in (I ran 143 miles in January) with no real history of dedicated running prior to the past 2 months I tweaked my left hip and have rested and rehabbed that the past 2 weeks. As I have discussed with my PT that was caused by my already compromised posture/stride and what not so thankfully that is being actively corrected and I can return to logging some miles soon! That is the only injury I have now and have no other real ones to speak of thankfully.

    As for my goals I am happy with my current strength levels and since really delving into a lot of Strong First principles and training methods a lot of the guess work has been taken out of it so should I want to increase it I know where to turn. My main concern now is in increasing my ability to run and hike and dig/cut trees (basically work) at a high output with less strain and huffing and puffing. So "conditioning" and "endurance" I suppose would be the general terms I am going for.
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  15. Snowman

    Snowman Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Welcome @Ulven!

    EDIT: You must have replied as I was writing this ;).

    Definitely. I started out doing two handed swings with 32 kg. By the time I was snatching 32 kg, any questions I had about the effectiveness of A+A had been answered. That was a multi-year process for me, though. Sustainable progress in multiple areas, with very few injuries, is a pretty good way to go.

    A HRM is a great investment for getting the most out of your aerobic work; it's easy to work harder than you think you are.
    For A+A repeats, I think the HR tracks can be interesting to watch and compare, but it's not something that should base your training around. Go by feel, as you're doing, and use the HR tracks to learn how your body changes over time, and how your recovery is affected by sleep, alcohol, stress, etc.

    Totally. I started training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at an MMA gym a while ago. As you can imagine, the thought process is generally that more and harder are always better. The amount of value training has is assumed to be directly proportional to the amount of suffering it causes. And that's fine. I'm not going to change an entire culture. I just go in, I train hard while I'm there (2 days a week), and the rest of the week I do my thing. When people complement me on how I'm stronger than I look, or how I can roll quite a few hard rounds in row without slowing down, I say thank you and leave it at that. If they're really curious, they'll ask. Not my job to proselytize.

    At the end of the day, most training works. The main benefit of A+A isn't that it works way better than other methods (although it certainly does, often enough). The main benefit in my eyes is that it gives you so much while taking so little from you.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  16. Ulven

    Ulven Triple-Digit Post Count

    Word, I hear you on that. After doing some research into the MAF zone stuff and general aerobic base building I have been using nasal breathing to determine my pace/effort. Seeing as how there's some conflicting info on how effective that can be for determining intensity and the fact that I think it would be cool to put numbers to something like "I feel like it took less effort to do..." a monitor seems like a good investment as you said.

    Ahh yes, I am quite familiar with that both with my work and with my own martial arts training. I appreciate your attitude to it though. Good on ya. And also thanks for the welcome and to all for reading through my wall of texts. There are times when I can be succinct and then there's times like this where I happily ramble on and on heh! But I know the tiniest fraction of what there is to be learned so I want to express and ask and share as much as possible in order to tease out more from those that have put in the time before me.
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  17. WxHerk

    WxHerk More than 300 posts Certified Instructor


    Terrific session from yesterday. Started with three getups per side, then a couple minutes to let my heart rate settle. Did 42 repeats of 5 with the 32kg in 49 minutes. The bell was flying up and my heart rate was dropping quicker and lower than normal. One of my absolute best training days ever.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2019
  18. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    great work John. You did "just" 105 total reps of heavy snatches. Oh wait, per arm. As an hr track enthusiast I absolutely love your track. It's crazy these A+A workhorses, isn't it?
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  19. WxHerk

    WxHerk More than 300 posts Certified Instructor

    Thanks, Harald!! Yes, workhorse indeed..I could have kept going but definitely felt it in a good way the rest of the day. I believe we are related, as far as hr track enthusiasts!!
  20. Bro Mo

    Bro Mo Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    You can still do those mental toughness sessions once per week or, ideally, much less often like once every couple months. If you track percentage of improvement of a benchmark session (ie., Fran or PFT) you'll likely see greater percentage of improvement which would be more normalized among different fitness levels of different individuals.

    The real benefit to the way you're training in comparison is longevity. A tactical athlete is useless with a torn ACL, imbalanced hormone levels, etc. On top of that, you don't want to be washed up at the ripe old age of 38. I think training hard can do great things for about 15 years before a person falls off the cliff. 15 years is a long time to recognize the water coming to a boil which makes it so attractive for so long.
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