Alactic + Aerobic

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
In its essence ERAS takes care of multiple aspects of peri-operative period. You try optimise the patient's health - get him to lose weight, normalise his BSL and BP, improve his aerobic fitness. During the case you manage fluid balance, analgesia and other things in the context of surgery being done. After the operation - early mobilization, reducing the amount of opioids, early feeding, etc., etc. You can easily find details by searching Google.
Very interesting... I follow a FB group for living kidney donors and it often seems like once one thing gets "off" (fluids, food, not being able to walk soon after, too much opiods, etc.) then other things don't go nearly as well in their recovery. I think all that was optimized for me.

Stress response leads to the increase in oxygen consumption, and in order to sustain it cardiovascular fitness is important.

At rest oxygen consumption is about 2-4 ml/kg/min, give or take. For about 48 hours after major surgery it can be elevated to 6-8 ml/kg/min. If we pull the patient through the stress test and he is capable to achieve 10 ml/kg/min for a short time it is a good indication that he or she will be coping with more sustained demands at lower levels. So, better fitness, better he ability to cope with post-op stress.
Fascinating. Now the treadmill stress test that they did on me in the pre-op testing makes a lot more sense.... and I see how my aerobic fitness served me well.

Thanks for that info @Damiola
 

Al Ciampa

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
As far as aerobic fitness and surgery are concerned. Surgery is trauma to the body (obviously), and the degree of stress response depends on the extent of the intervention. Stress response leads to the increase in oxygen consumption, and in order to sustain it cardiovascular fitness is important.

At rest oxygen consumption is about 2-4 ml/kg/min, give or take. For about 48 hours after major surgery it can be elevated to 6-8 ml/kg/min. If we pull the patient through the stress test and he is capable to achieve 10 ml/kg/min for a short time it is a good indication that he or she will be coping with more sustained demands at lower levels. So, better fitness, better he ability to cope with post-op stress.

There are many other aspects to it, but this is it in a nutshell.
Really interesting!
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I've heard these kinds of things in the past, e.g., someone I know who had chemo for cancer 20 years ago was given instructions to add as much bodyweight as he could before the treatments started because his doctors knew the treatments would cause him to lose weight.

-S-
 

DrFierce

Double-Digit Post Count
I apologize for striking a dead horse here but how does swimming rank as steady state cardio for aerobic training?
It all depends on how you do it. If you are maintaining your HR In the aerobic zone for the duration of the swim it would count. Many on the forum use the Maffetone formula (180-your age) as the cut off and try to stay below it.
 

Snowman

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
It all depends on how you do it. If you are maintaining your HR In the aerobic zone for the duration of the swim it would count. Many on the forum use the Maffetone formula (180-your age) as the cut off and try to stay below it.
+1. For me, swimming decidedly not a MAF training activity. For someone who actually knows what their doing in the water, it could be.
 

LoneRider

More than 300 posts
My MAF number, at 36 is 144 BPM so that's my target for all aerobic only fitness sessions. For swimming I usually count my pulse for fifteen seconds immediately afterward and multiply the count by four as I'm not comfortable having a heartrate monitor on me in the water.

Usually I do swim repeats ranging from 25-200m on swim days.
 

Snowman

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
My MAF number, at 36 is 144 BPM so that's my target for all aerobic only fitness sessions. For swimming I usually count my pulse for fifteen seconds immediately afterward and multiply the count by four as I'm not comfortable having a heartrate monitor on me in the water.

Usually I do swim repeats ranging from 25-200m on swim days.
If you do train with a HRM on a regular basis, you'll be able to get a feel for what MAF and sub-MAF feels like (although this may feel a little different due to swimming specific breathing).
My understanding is that you can be 10-30 BPM below MAF and still be getting a training effect that is almost as good.
In other words, if you can do easy swimming, that more or less feels like your at MAF, you're likely getting the desired training effect. Once swimming stops being really easy, you're likely at the top end of MAF, and need to stop and rest for a few minutes to let your HR drop until you feel almost normal. Then start doing easy swimming again. Rinse, repeat. Not as easy to titrate as running, walking, rowing, etc, but still likely very effective.

I can stay at MAF (and sub-MAF) for quite a while in the pool, but then at some point I usually let go of the edge and everything goes to hell. I really should try to get to the point where I can at least tread water at MAF...
 

Van Der Merve

Double-Digit Post Count
Some swimming styles are more suitable for MAF than others. Breaststroke, for example, is good. The intensity and therefore HR are easy to regulate. Unlike butterfly, for example. I also think doing MAF without HRM is not feasible. There are waterproof strapless monitors around. Reasonably reliable.
 

ChrisWo468

Double-Digit Post Count
@Harald Motz in the past I ran a lot, it destroyed my body!! If you run 6 days a week for one hour is too much, your hormone levels get out of wrack!! Be careful with running in the zone 130-140 bpm. I think 2 and max 3 days a week of aerobic work is enough if you train a+a.
You can harm you power (alactic training) with too much aerobic training. I bet you get better results with less training.

Walking is aerobic training too, and it will give you more bang for the buck on the aerobic side. Your body is made to walk and not to run! Running increases your cortisol levels too much...

Walking repairs your body
 

LoneRider

More than 300 posts
If you do train with a HRM on a regular basis, you'll be able to get a feel for what MAF and sub-MAF feels like (although this may feel a little different due to swimming specific breathing).
Thanks for that. I usually count my pulse immediately after the swim repeat and then rest for as long as needed before I start another repeat.

Of note I'm reading Dr. Tanaka's slow jogging book and cross referencing it with this thread to sort out a post October A+A kettlebell program.

Presently I'm gearing up for a powerlifting competition using 5/3/1 for Powerlifting's Off Season protocol until eight weeks from the meet where I'll use Reload to prep for it.

Side Note: Over the Christmas Holidays when I was at my parents' house on leave for three weeks I used nothing but kettlebells for strength training and conditioning work. When I tested my training maxes for this current 5/3/1 cycle I found no strength losses in the press, deadlift and squat and only a slight one for the bench press (telling me I need to do some more getups and add floor presses into the mix next time).
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
@Harald Motz in the past I ran a lot, it destroyed my body!! If you run 6 days a week for one hour is too much, your hormone levels get out of wrack!! Be careful with running in the zone 130-140 bpm. I think 2 and max 3 days a week of aerobic work is enough if you train a+a.
You can harm you power (alactic training) with too much aerobic training. I bet you get better results with less training.

Walking is aerobic training too, and it will give you more bang for the buck on the aerobic side. Your body is made to walk and not to run! Running increases your cortisol levels too much...

Walking repairs your body
I am with you on keeping an eye on running intensity/heart rate. The bunch of my running is at 120-130 bpm.

Of note I'm reading Dr. Tanaka's slow jogging book and cross referencing it with this thread to sort out a post October A+A kettlebell program.
I highly recommend this book, great resource in my opinion it makes running or jogging very approachable for many folks. Keep your hr low, breathe through your nose and learn/getting accustomed to forefoot strike at a high cadence.

Walking repairs your body
slow jogging repairs the body and makes it resilient when some things kept in check.
 

LoneRider

More than 300 posts
I highly recommend this book, great resource in my opinion it makes running or jogging very approachable for many folks. Keep your hr low, breathe through your nose and learn/getting accustomed to forefoot strike at a high cadence.
@Harald Motz, thanks. I've been making quite the number of notes in the last two days of reading this particular book.

Post A+A sessions I'm thinking of adding short strength sessions with presses, jerks, getups, front and goblet squats etc. Any advice there?
 

Harald Motz

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Certified Instructor
@Harald Motz, thanks. I've been making quite the number of notes in the last two days of reading this particular book.

Post A+A sessions I'm thinking of adding short strength sessions with presses, jerks, getups, front and goblet squats etc. Any advice there?
When I do A+A work it is serious snatching for around 30 - 50 min. 'One lift a day'.

Some folks like to do a set of pushups after every 4, 5, 6 repeats or whatever. Could also work with very low reps of presses or goblets.

Or you could keep 5rx20 on A+A and chose one lift after them for non excessive volume.
Usually when combining A+A with lifting think 'easy strength'.

Then there is the concept of 'variety days'...
Might take some experimentation what works best for your schedule, circumstances, recovery...
 

LoneRider

More than 300 posts
@Harald Motz, thanks for the advice.

Thanks to S&S I can appreciate low rep grinds after ballistics as a viable strength programming.

I also rather like this medley by @Dav Thew earlier in the post:

My ususal choice was:
32kg one arm LCCJ 2 reps
Rest
28kg snatch 5 reps
Rest
Double 24kg LCCJ 2reps
Rest
28kg snatch
Rest
Return to the start.
In my case, my snatches would be with 24KG bells since I own a pair each of 16KG, 24KG, and 32KG bells, but I rather like this setup above. After all, Pavel himself said that snatches and clean and jerks were great exercises used by the spetsnaz for never quit stamina and strength/explosiveness and I do have the shoulder flexibility for the double LCCJ (I credit this to Turkish Getups).

For lower rep grinds (less than five reps) I'd probably do presses or something similar after each 'sequence' above as an initial thought. I've got nine months to sort that out though as I'm currently running a barbell based program to get ready for a powerlifting meet in October.

I think 2 and max 3 days a week of aerobic work is enough if you train a+a.
You can harm you power (alactic training) with too much aerobic training. I bet you get better results with less training.
I'm definitely gonna keep that in mind @ChrisWo468, thanks. Mostly 30-45 minutes duration road work.
 
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LoneRider

More than 300 posts
I highly recommend this book, great resource in my opinion it makes running or jogging very approachable for many folks. Keep your hr low, breathe through your nose and learn/getting accustomed to forefoot strike at a high cadence.
@Harald Motz

Thank you for the recommendation. It's been about 3 weeks since I bought the book and I've seen some pretty decent runs, my last two were as follows (roughly the same route):

  1. Today: 4.02 KM, MAX HR: 139 BPM and AVG HR: 125 BPM
  2. Monday: 3.75 KM, MAX HR: 141 BPM and AVG HR: 125 BPM
TLDR: There's really something to this slow jogging stuff...
 

Kettlebelephant

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
1-2x/week for tonic or maintenance
3-4x/week for actual improvements in strength/power/endurance/muscle development/feeling good/being able to use a heavier kettlebell, etc.

In this way it's much like LSD/cardio, or strength training (or pursuit of any new quality, really).
With what other training variables? Is this for only doing A+A?

I'm asking because I want to reintroduce KBs, but not completely give up my other work. For many months now I'm doing a 5-6 day training week consisting of 3 BB strength sessions (Tactical Barbell Operator) & 2-3 30-60min easy runs. I'd like to change that to 2 strength sessions (TB Fighter), 1-2 runs & 2 A+A sessions.

There is of course a difference between doing only 2 A+A sessions per week and doing 2 A+A sessions + other stuff in terms of total volume/total stress, so the outcome should differ aswell.
Anyone here who has combined A+A with other strength and conditioning (besides the ones who combine it with easy aerobic work)?
 

Anna C

More than 5000 posts
Elite Certified Instructor
With what other training variables? Is this for only doing A+A?

I'm asking because I want to reintroduce KBs, but not completely give up my other work. For many months now I'm doing a 5-6 day training week consisting of 3 BB strength sessions (Tactical Barbell Operator) & 2-3 30-60min easy runs. I'd like to change that to 2 strength sessions (TB Fighter), 1-2 runs & 2 A+A sessions.

There is of course a difference between doing only 2 A+A sessions per week and doing 2 A+A sessions + other stuff in terms of total volume/total stress, so the outcome should differ aswell.
Anyone here who has combined A+A with other strength and conditioning (besides the ones who combine it with easy aerobic work)?
Basically alongside any other programming... preferably some strength, and some LSD. I sent you a PM about Al's forum, pretty much everyone is doing a combination there.

2 strength sessions (TB Fighter), 1-2 runs & 2 A+A sessions.
I think this would work well.
 
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