Alactic + Aerobic

Snowman

> 1k Posts
Anyone here who has combined A+A with other strength and conditioning (besides the ones who combine it with easy aerobic work)?
I'll echo what Anna said; most of us who do A+A aren't doing "pure" A+A. The most common thing to add is easy aerobic work. You don't need as much pure strength work as you think you do when you're doing A+A as your primary training (it turns out that snatching a heavy 'bell lots of times is a decent strength stimulus), but if you really want to continue to make strength a top priority, then a schedule like you suggested is reasonable. As long a you're able to recovery adequately, any mix of A+A, LED, and pure strength work seems to be pretty effective.
 

Alaska80

Double-Digit Post Count
With what other training variables? Is this for only doing A+A?

I'm asking because I want to reintroduce KBs, but not completely give up my other work. For many months now I'm doing a 5-6 day training week consisting of 3 BB strength sessions (Tactical Barbell Operator) & 2-3 30-60min easy runs. I'd like to change that to 2 strength sessions (TB Fighter), 1-2 runs & 2 A+A sessions.

There is of course a difference between doing only 2 A+A sessions per week and doing 2 A+A sessions + other stuff in terms of total volume/total stress, so the outcome should differ as well.
Anyone here who has combined A+A with other strength and conditioning (besides the ones who combine it with easy aerobic work)?
Kettle,

Let me premise my statements with the caveat that all my training is specific to carrying very heavy loads long distances in the mountains. This has bearing on my comments.

I disagree with the comments that state one cannot see good progress on training a modality 2 days a week. These are not just tonic workouts, all of a week's/month's/year's volume is aggregated toward a specific goal. Agreed that if you want to be a competitive lifter (though Louis Simmons successfully trains strength, power and conditioning year round without cycling), you need to train the BB more than twice a week. But if you are after general/tactical/mountain fitness then making consistent progress in the three fitness domains is absolutely possible and it has been my life's goal to figure out the best combination.

I ran operator, A+A and LSD for a long time. It wore me down. My cluster was MP, BP, back squat and deadlift. Deadlifting three days a week with heavy squats, A+A and LSD was pretty brutal. Though I did see some gains, but developed some quadriceps tendonitis from it.

I also have run TB Fighter, A+A, LSD. This was better, but deadlifting heavy twice a week is still challenging depending on how advanced you are. Obviously there are options to do otherwise, but I love DL'ing. This was an effective method but not the best for me: 2 days BB (same cluster as operator), 2 days A+A and 2 days LSD.

The method I am on now is the best method I have found for mountain (and would venture general) fitness.

For 26 weeks, after my peak mountain season which runs from May-October, I run 5/3/1 3 days a week (M/W/F) with DL, BP, ZSQ and MP. ZSQ and MP are paired on Monday. I hit every lift heavy once per week and then perform 5x5 at First Set Last for speed once a week. For my assistance work M/W/F I do Q&D Snatches for 13 weeks and then A+A snatches for 13 weeks.

Around April, I will switch to 5/3/1 2 days a week with sprints, A+A 2 days combined with LSD, and heavy rucking 2 days. I will perform this the other 26 weeks.

This lifting style has allowed me constant progress, with enough energy left over for 5 kids. My resting HR has dropped into the low 40's high 30's and my strength has slowly, but steadily increased. If you wanted to go even more minimally, I believe the best BB cluster there is for general fitness is MP, DL and Zercher Squats. I only BP because my wife likes what it does to my chest.

The one thing I would like to explore is turning my 5/3/1 BB work into something that looks more like the Russian Periodization model, however I have not figured out how to crack that nut yet.
 

LoneRider

More than 300 posts
Had my first run at Alactic and Aerobic (was originally planning to do it in October after that powerlifting meet I've been training for) but with the gyms being closed on Oahu, to include our gym on post, I decided to implement my planned A+A with S+S Round 2 program I've been brainstorming through for the last three months today.

All in all the first session went decent.

The session consists of this sequence I found earlier in the post:

32kg one arm LCCJ 2 reps
Rest
28kg snatch 5 reps
Rest
Double 24kg LCCJ 2reps
Rest
28kg snatch 5 reps
Rest
Return to the start.
The only difference is I used a 24kg bell for the snatches since I have 2x16KG, 2x24KG and 2x32KG bells in my home courage corner. I also did an 'easy strength' single of the military press with the dvukhpudovik between my ballistics and after the fourth set, I did a split squat per leg. This came from one of Pavel's older books where he mentioned one-legged squats and pullups were favored by the spetsnaz between sets of kettlebell exercises.

I completed 24 sets which resulted in:

18 x military presses @ 32KG per arm
12 x one arm long cycle clean and jerks @ 32KG total (6x reps per arm)
60 x snatches @ 24KG (30/arm)
12 x split squats (6x/leg)

The split squats and military presses were done in an 'easy strength' sort of manner.

Max HR: 155 BPM
Avg HR: 124 BPM

I waited till my heartrate was at 100-110 BPM or so, and caught my breath between sets, using guidelines in the 'Timeless Simple' section of the new version of Simple and Sinister.

So far I rather like this A+A training program and took this covid imposed isolation as an opportunity to test something I've been working on for designs.

@Harald Motz and company thank you for starting this thread.
 

Al Ciampa

> 2k Posts
Certified Instructor
Had my first run at Alactic and Aerobic (was originally planning to do it in October after that powerlifting meet I've been training for) but with the gyms being closed on Oahu, to include our gym on post, I decided to implement my planned A+A with S+S Round 2 program I've been brainstorming through for the last three months today.

All in all the first session went decent.

The session consists of this sequence I found earlier in the post:



The only difference is I used a 24kg bell for the snatches since I have 2x16KG, 2x24KG and 2x32KG bells in my home courage corner. I also did an 'easy strength' single of the military press with the dvukhpudovik between my ballistics and after the fourth set, I did a split squat per leg. This came from one of Pavel's older books where he mentioned one-legged squats and pullups were favored by the spetsnaz between sets of kettlebell exercises.

I completed 24 sets which resulted in:

18 x military presses @ 32KG per arm
12 x one arm long cycle clean and jerks @ 32KG total (6x reps per arm)
60 x snatches @ 24KG (30/arm)
12 x split squats (6x/leg)

The split squats and military presses were done in an 'easy strength' sort of manner.

Max HR: 155 BPM
Avg HR: 124 BPM

I waited till my heartrate was at 100-110 BPM or so, and caught my breath between sets, using guidelines in the 'Timeless Simple' section of the new version of Simple and Sinister.

So far I rather like this A+A training program and took this covid imposed isolation as an opportunity to test something I've been working on for designs.

@Harald Motz and company thank you for starting this thread.
Great stuff!
 

LoneRider

More than 300 posts
One thing I noticed was that my heart rate on my first A+A session jumped up by 10-15 more BPM than during the military presses. I attribute this down to the fact that maintaining the necessary tension all around to sort out a good clean and press was the cause.

My new schedule is 3 days of training on and one day off, a legacy of my old CrossFit days (circa 2009-2011) on this split:

Day 1: A&A
Day 2: S&S
Day 3: Slow Jogging or Rucking 30-60 minutes
Day 4: Rest

Then repeat the cycle above until further notice. I'm gonna be curious about the effects of this training when I get back into 5/3/1 whenever I have access to a barbell again. I suppose I would call it a 'WTH' effect yet again.

I had been planning to test something I call an 'independent cycle' model in my notes which involves the block training methods discussed in Easy Strength and in Pavel's first kettlebell book and well this COVID-19 made for a 'No Time Like the Present' test.

The Independent Cycle I speak of is thus:

Cycle 1: 5/3/1 Cycle
Cycle 2: The A&A/S&S split previously described

And basically I'd have 5/3/1 cycles and kettlebell cycles chase each other through to the completion of a given year. More broadly it would be a barbell cycle chased with a kettlebell cycle with each cycle of equal duration.
 

Pasibrzuch

Double-Digit Post Count
what do A+A people think about sessions with both swings and snatches? For example: Repeat 1: swing left x 7 Repeat 2: snatch left x 5, Repeat 3: swing right x 7, Repeat 4: snatch right x 5, repeat, repeat, repeat.

I have some foggy recollection about @Harald Motz writing here that whenever he switches the exercise or weight he experiences a setback. Is it a figment of my imagination or something along these lines was posted here? Is is better to stick to one ballistic exercise at one weight for the whole cycle.

After a year+ of doing swings and get-ups exclusively, snatch is so tempting.
 

Al Ciampa

> 2k Posts
Certified Instructor
what do A+A people think about sessions with both swings and snatches? For example: Repeat 1: swing left x 7 Repeat 2: snatch left x 5, Repeat 3: swing right x 7, Repeat 4: snatch right x 5, repeat, repeat, repeat.

I have some foggy recollection about @Harald Motz writing here that whenever he switches the exercise or weight he experiences a setback. Is it a figment of my imagination or something along these lines was posted here? Is is better to stick to one ballistic exercise at one weight for the whole cycle.

After a year+ of doing swings and get-ups exclusively, snatch is so tempting.
“The snatch is the Tzar of the kettlebell lifts”.
 

Harald Motz

> 2k Posts
Certified Instructor
I have some foggy recollection about @Harald Motz writing here that whenever he switches the exercise or weight he experiences a setback. Is it a figment of my imagination or something along these lines was posted here? Is is better to stick to one ballistic exercise at one weight for the whole cycle.
With regards to switching exercises within A+A guidelines quite the opposite:
Improvements on a "new" move come quite quickly. There are some basic reasons for that. You use a reasonable heavy weight which provides great feedback by the about right intensity/weight. Then you do lots of repeats while having just enough of rest between. Lots of repeats lots of opportunity to get a perfect set up. Lots of repeats with a heavier weight provide a lot of volume which is needed to trigger a lot of adaptation metabolically (alactic + aerobic pathways) and structural too: bones, muscle, tendons...
When you know on what to work on about your technique it gets better quite quickly.

Generally I would advise to stick to one exercise, preferably the snatch for longer periods of around 10-12 weeks. Because it takes just one bell on which you can snatch the hell out of it, developping (over)enthusiasm is limited by your hands - you learn to listen to them because they will scream to you. Because to see that just one move done over and over again can be enough and must not hurt the joints. Single arm snatches for repeats and volume for weeks and months cover the package of strength, power, endurance, mobility/extension, resilience in a well rounded package.
 

Harald Motz

> 2k Posts
Certified Instructor
Because it takes just one bell on which you can snatch the hell out of it,
about an hour ago I had another A+A session with the one arm snatch. And yes, one can snatch the hell out of it. As far as I can see it there seems no tool and move where you can literally throw the bell up and down at high power rates Fast concentric and fast eccentric (see "the quick and the dead). The one arm snatch goes along way. Also the aspect of offset loading provided by a single bell the torsion/antitorsion thing.
 

Shawn

Triple-Digit Post Count
I have a couple of questions. I always read these threads about A+A. I understand most of the concept, 5 heavy snatches, rest, etc... Is there a clear program to start this? Like how many repeats? How often to do it? How to progress?
 

GeoffreyLevens

> 1k Posts
I have a couple of questions. I always read these threads about A+A. I understand most of the concept, 5 heavy snatches, rest, etc... Is there a clear program to start this? Like how many repeats? How often to do it? How to progress?
Can also be done with swings, probably long cycle C&P... probably a number of non-kettlebell modalities(?) I will let the more knowledgeable fill in the rest
 

LoneRider

More than 300 posts
Shawn said:
I have a couple of questions. I always read these threads about A+A. I understand most of the concept, 5 heavy snatches, rest, etc... Is there a clear program to start this? Like how many repeats? How often to do it? How to progress?
I've been doing it in a 'same but different' sort of fashion, i.e. fairly heavy ballistics, rest and then rinse and repeat. The ballistics vary from snatches, to the one and two arm long cycle, the two bell clean and two bell jerk. For instance today I did this medley:

One Arm Long Cycle @ 32KG x 2 on my Right Arm (followed by a couple vertical pulls from the fence post in my back yard)
Rest
2 KB Jerk @ 32KG x 1(followed by a split squat per leg)
Rest
Snatch @ 24KG x 5 (aforementioned vertical pull followed)
Rest
2 KB Jerk @ 32KG x 2 then single split squat/leg
Rest
2 KB Long Cycle @ 24KG x 2 then vertical pulls
Rest
2 KB Jerk @ 32KG x 3 then split squat
Rest
Snatch @ 24KG x 5 then vertical pulls
Rest
One Arm Long Cycle @ 32KG x 2 on my Left Arm then split squat

I repeated this sequence three times for a total of thirty two sets (each exercise was a 'set'). In this case I was lifting fairly heavy bells powerfully for low reps and putting my heart rate up at the same time. The work took upwards of an hour with an average heartrate of 121 BPM and a maximum heartrate of 146 BPM.
 

George Vrotsos

Double-Digit Post Count
developping (over)enthusiasm is limited by your hands - you learn to listen to them because they will scream to you.
On hand care, do you guys re-chalk between repeats or just at the start of the workout? When you have a mild blood blister that hasn't popped yet, do you take time off, train through it or something else? Any other hand care tips for surviving high volume A+A snatching?

I know the hand care basics; I use an emery board on calluses daily and moisturize with heavy duty stuff before bed. Whenever I try 15+ repeats my calluses always end up w/ a blood blister on each hand. I love snatching and would like to get into regular A+A training, but I probably need to iron this out first. Don't have the same issues w/ swings or C+P.
 

Al Ciampa

> 2k Posts
Certified Instructor
On hand care, do you guys re-chalk between repeats or just at the start of the workout? When you have a mild blood blister that hasn't popped yet, do you take time off, train through it or something else? Any other hand care tips for surviving high volume A+A snatching?

I know the hand care basics; I use an emery board on calluses daily and moisturize with heavy duty stuff before bed. Whenever I try 15+ repeats my calluses always end up w/ a blood blister on each hand. I love snatching and would like to get into regular A+A training, but I probably need to iron this out first. Don't have the same issues w/ swings or C+P.
What size bell do you use for snatches? There’s nothing to iron out... you simply have to wait for however long it takes to harden your hands. This also implies the proper stimulus do so. Moisture will always make it worse, however your hands have adapted.
 

George Vrotsos

Double-Digit Post Count
24 kg for snatches. It's probably too light, I can pass the talk test almost immediately after repeats. I don't have a HR monitor yet and figured it would be better to err on the side of caution and go too light than too heavy to start. I haven't committed to A+A fully yet, just testing it out once a week when I'm not doing S+S. For reference I'm at timeless Simple for S+S.
 
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