Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic

[Anna C]

I jumped back into some A+A today...
5 snatch R 20kg + 2 push-ups, rest
5 snatch L 20kg + 2 pushups, rest
5 2H swings 40kg + 2 pushups, rest
x6 rounds
18 total repeats in 24 min

Felt great, as it always does.

 

[WxHerk]

Had a funny incident, might as well come clean. Monday I had a really great A&A session. Ended up knocking out 51 repeats in an hour with my DD 32. Tuesday, I was set to double swing my 32s and noticed that my DD 32 looked a touch smaller than its brother. After three sets of double swings where something didn't seem right I looked closer at the DD 32 and saw "28" on its face!!!! Nothing to do but switch them around and keep going.

That explains why the bell felt so light and I felt so crisp Monday and ~ 2 weeks ago when I knocked out 50 repeats in one hour. After that I was getting 38 or 39 repeats in an hour and figured it was the increased heat and humidity (86F/30C and my back yard is salt water). Anyway, yesterday with a 32 (I checked!!) it was 43 repeats in an hour, 50 total and everything felt great!! In all seriousness, I was a bit under the weather the past couple weeks and finally feel 100%. Will post HR data later, as it is on my phone.

 

[2accidental]

I don't think a program/plan for this is a good idea.

@Harald Motz -- Past a medium-heavy weight, doing get-ups is not always the best training for being able to do get-ups... or much else, for that matter. There are better ways to train, which is exactly what Harald has been doing. And then he can do 100 get-ups with the beast.

hi anna,
could you elaborate on this? Would love to know how to get the 100 tgus with training tgus

 

[Anna C]

"could you elaborate on this? Would love to know how to get the 100 tgus with training tgus "

Follow @Harald Motz Instagram and Training Logs.

Seriously, I have no idea how one trains to do 100 TGUs, but he apparently did! And doing a lot of get-ups was not part of the training.

But to elaborate on my statement in a general sense ("Past a medium-heavy weight, doing get-ups is not always the best training for being able to do get-ups... or much else, for that matter. There are better ways to train, which is exactly what Harald has been doing."), you have to ask yourself to what degree get-ups (or any training exercise, for that matter) are a tool (specific exercise + implement) useful to build a broader physical capability? At some point, it's the development of a broad physical capability that enables accomplishment of a feat with a particular tool (exercise + implement). I think get-ups serve us well to a point, but past that medium-heavy weight, they aren't the best tool to build physical capability.

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

I think get-ups serve us well to a point, but past that medium-heavy weight, they aren't the best tool to build physical capability.

I also feel need to consider risk to reward ratio. Prolonged holding of heavy iron over my face and head just does not compute. My personal preference is to use TGU's more for mobility training and get stronger using other movement patterns.

 

[Pasibrzuch]

Quarantine time really makes me ponder things.

Today I made 36x5 snatches, every 1:45min. When I checked my HR monitor afterwards, I exceeded the supposed glycolitic threshold a few times. Overall, it summed up to 10 mins in glycolisis in an over 1h session.
Before I collapsed mentally because I didn't go pure A+A, I remembered Pavel's article. It reads, A+A is 20x5 EMOM.
As was shown in this thread with various HR graphs, gradual lactate buildup during an EMOM session is inevitable.
I mapped my intuitions of different properties of different protocols onto this graph:



Dashed line stands for resulting in both mitogenesis and mitorespiration.
Note it's not a statement of facts, I'm just trying to figure out the nature of each protocol. I did not involve other factors, e.g. favoring alactic and/or aerobic power and/or capacity.
I would appreciate critique. I think a correct graph would save confusion for A+A novices like me.
Hope you find it useful!

 

[wespom9]

It's been a while since I took exercise physiology, though I do read and study to a small degree. In my humble opinion, your A+A EMOM and Q&D suggestion are probably far closer to the middle of the graph than you've outlined (as well as the others on the left side too). I am not an expert physiologist by any means, but it's doubtful respiration OR biogenesis happens in a vacuum as your graph would state. Picking and choosing physiological outcomes like that is highly unlikely.

Also your A+A EMOM is highly subjective...even though its set rest periods, an individual's work capacity would dictate where on that horizontal line they session would fall.

Not trying to knock you down here, trying to expand the conversation.

 

[Adachi]

Note to self, add rowing.

 

[Tigger]

"could you elaborate on this? Would love to know how to get the 100 tgus with training tgus "

Follow @Harald Motz Instagram and Training Logs.

Seriously, I have no idea how one trains to do 100 TGUs, but he apparently did! And doing a lot of get-ups was not part of the training.

But to elaborate on my statement in a general sense ("Past a medium-heavy weight, doing get-ups is not always the best training for being able to do get-ups... or much else, for that matter. There are better ways to train, which is exactly what Harald has been doing."), you have to ask yourself to what degree get-ups (or any training exercise, for that matter) are a tool (specific exercise + implement) useful to build a broader physical capability? At some point, it's the development of a broad physical capability that enables accomplishment of a feat with a particular tool (exercise + implement). I think get-ups serve us well to a point, but past that medium-heavy weight, they aren't the best tool to build physical capability.

@Anna C in light of this, do you find TGU Sinister goals to be worthwhile? I am one of those swings easier than TGU and am still figuring out the march towards 10x 62%+bw TGU. I hope to continue to find WTH effects when I reach it.

 

[Anna C]

@Anna C in light of this, do you find TGU Sinister goals to be worthwhile? I am one of those swings easier than TGU and am still figuring out the march towards 10x 62%+bw TGU. I hope to continue to find WTH effects when I reach it.

Yes! But Pavel's "Three main roads to the top" applies, to get "To Sinister and Beyond"... S&S 2.0, page 114-115. For the heavier guys, Option One or Two. For the lightweights, Option Three.

 

[Adachi]

Yes! But Pavel's "Three main roads to the top" applies, to get "To Sinister and Beyond"... S&S 2.0, page 114-115. For the heavier guys, Option One or Two. For the lightweights, Option Three.

I'm imagining that inclusion or expansion of LSD work might iron out some of the wrinkles of progression for some of us, from what I've seen here @Tiger . just spitballing though.

 

[Tigger]

I'm imagining that inclusion or expansion of LSD work might iron out some of the wrinkles of progression for some of us, from what I've seen here @Tiger . just spitballing though.

LSD affecting the TGU? How so?

 

[Bauer]

LSD affecting the TGU? How so?

I think this passage sums it up nicely:

I like 'Uphill Athlete' viewpoint also the containing statement: all models are wrong, some are useful.
Slow fibers mitochondria as a sink for the fast fibers pyruvate production. Slow fibers mitochondria are built by long easy endurance work. Then for athletic performance HIT is used sparingly (before comp) to "shuttle" the pyruvate built in the fast(er) fibers into the slow fibers mitochondria. They can make use of it to produce some energy/ATP. With that lactate accumulation is kept low(er) when compared to poor aerobic development.

The probability that I've trained the slower fibers in my upper body via rowing is rather high, as I usually keep my intensity far below MAF, and I accumulated a few 10k rows over some years now. The fruits of aerobic development hang really low.

 

[DuncanGB]

...I put my headphones to put some monotone repetitive binaural beats on my ears and ease into it...

This snippet had me googling "binaural beats", but was pleased that it led back to something that had intrigued me some years back - in short, music tuned to 432Hz frequency

My last few A&A sessions, I've played this binaural 432Hz music and have found it soothingly conducive to the second A of A&A; it helps...

sorry for the repeat and follow-on below...

... trackpads have gotten too big ...

 

[DuncanGB]

...I put my headphones to put some monotone repetitive binaural beats on my ears and ease into it...

This snippet had me googling "binaural beats" last week, but was pleased to find that it led back to something that had intrigued me some years back - in short, music tuned around 432Hz

Have done my last few A&A sessions to such music playing in the background and found it to be soothingly conducive to the second A of A&A, but also find that it helps maintain focus on first A snatch and swing technique and over the whole training session at the same time too

Anyone have similar explorations and findings, especially in the second A - yin-side - of A&A that they could share?

 

[Boris Bachmann]

Seriously, I have no idea how one trains to do 100 TGUs, but he apparently did! And doing a lot of get-ups was not part of the training.

But to elaborate on my statement in a general sense ("Past a medium-heavy weight, doing get-ups is not always the best training for being able to do get-ups... or much else, for that matter. There are better ways to train, which is exactly what Harald has been doing."), you have to ask yourself to what degree get-ups (or any training exercise, for that matter) are a tool (specific exercise + implement) useful to build a broader physical capability? At some point, it's the development of a broad physical capability that enables accomplishment of a feat with a particular tool (exercise + implement). I think get-ups serve us well to a point, but past that medium-heavy weight, they aren't the best tool to build physical capability.

I kind of agree with this, but kinda don't. There are certainly some physical endeavors that are a great at demonstrating qualities rather than building them. Baseball, for example, requires great power and speed to do well, but is a poor developer of power and speed. That said, you want to be a better baseball player, then you better spend a lot of time playing baseball.
If your goal is to do 100 TGUs, then it would behoove just about all challengers to spend a lot of time getting better at TGUs (by doing them).

 

[2accidental]

Thanks for all your excellent posts (and esp Anna- very inspiring stuff).

I have been working with the 24kg for the 1h swings for a few weeks, about 4 days/wk and it has become rather easy now, and it the 1st time in lots of years I end my session with 6 x 150metre medium-fast pace running. Surprised how easy it is though i am heavy for my height and have not greased the running groove since the 90s. Def a knock on effect of the 1h swings i believe. I watch my hr on my polar h7 for the swings and the running to keep it a + a.

Question is, does one use the hrm on strength sessions too ie deadlits, rows, bench, squats, presses, pullups/pulldowns, double snatch and c&j's? Obviously the more reps, the more rest ie a double may need only 90 secs whereas 5 reps may need 3mins??

Would love your input, folks

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

I very rarely use hrm but just once in awhile use fingers to carotid artery to check vs "felt sense". For sure A+A swings, heavy for me 2H 32kg and 36kg and 1H 24kg, my heart rate only goes up a little after 8 reps, maybe 110 max. It comes back down in about 1:45, 2 minutes at longest.Deadlift set it goes like a jack hammer and I need a good 4 minutes at or so for it to get back to Maffetone country. Overhead strict press has much less hr impact than dl but still a lot more than A+A swings.

 

[james_1127]

I dont use the HR monitor during strength sessions I just use the talk test

I obviously use the HR during endurance sessions to make sure my HR stays in the range I want it

I think the HR monitor isn't as applicable to strength work, the tension is going to really spike the HR... you could use it to maybe check recovery, but talk test accomplishes same thing imo

 

[Anna C]

Question is, does one use the hrm on strength sessions too ie deadlits, rows, bench, squats, presses, pullups/pulldowns, double snatch and c&j's? Obviously the more reps, the more rest ie a double may need only 90 secs whereas 5 reps may need 3mins??

I don't use a HRM for strength sessions except occasionally for curiosity. It doesn't provide much useful information relative to strength work sets and recovery. You'll see your HR go up and you'll see it go down, but going down doesn't tell you you're recovered enough for the next set, for strength work. For general strength-building, you should rest longer than just letting it go down, or a talk test. The goal is to get close to full ATP and creatine phosphate (PCr) restoration so you can express your full strength on the next set. Heart rate doesn't tell you the state of this. It takes 3-5 minutes for this recovery, generally speaking, though obviously it depends how much the work set depleted it (like you said, a double may need only 90 sec whereas 5 reps may need 3 min).

the tension is going to really spike the HR

Yes, the high tension. Also related, the HR is spiked by the sympathetic nervous system response to doing something hard.

The HR can go up for many reasons, and what makes it go up in steady-state cardio is different from what makes it go up with strength training. A+A has some components of both, so we make use of the information, but it is only one source. It can be particularly useful sometimes because it's an objective measure, but it doesn't tell you anywhere near everything about what's going on physiologically during training.