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Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic

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Question is, does one use the hrm on strength sessions too ie deadlits, rows, bench, squats, presses, pullups/pulldowns, double snatch and c&j's? Obviously the more reps, the more rest ie a double may need only 90 secs whereas 5 reps may need 3mins??

Would love your input, folks :)
Dependent on goals.

I often use a heart rate monitor for squatting, but my goals are probably not your goals. I hate running, so just about all of my 'aerobic' work is coming from walking the dog, squats, and kettlebells (linked is a recent blog post on the subject): Social Distancing (Part II)
 
Not exactly answering your questions but the idea of using the HR monitor for A+A got me thinking....

You could use HR recovery as an indicator, and when you take longer than say 60/90s to get back down to 120bpm or so it might indicate it was time to stop the session.

I found this passage in Gordon Pirie's book - "Running fast and injury free" - Olympic Long distance runner.

" During an interval session, a given fast stretch should be run at least 10 times, with the interval between runs being determined by the time required for the athlete to recover physiologically. This can be calculated by monitoring the athlete's pulse rate during the recovery interval.

The aim is to run with sufficient speed to stimulate a highest pulse at the end of the fast stretch of 180 beats per minute; that is, 18 beats in 6 seconds.

Recovery at this top end of the heart's effort occurs so rapidly that the best way to count the pulse rate is electronically. Failing this, measure the pulse rate at the wrist, on the left breast, or on the carotid artery (one only!), using the fingertips. An actual 180 maximum heart rate may be indicated by a 17 count in the first 6 seconds, because of the rapid initial drop of heart rate.

The interval should be run at a continuous trot, and with the same rhythm that is used in the fast run; the breathing rhythm should also be identical. This assists greatly in the recovery process. The interval's length is again decided by the heart's behaviour. When the heart rate has fallen to 120 beats per minute - 12 beats in 6 seconds - the recovery is complete and the next fast stretch can be run.

As one might expect, the interval after the first few fast sections will initially be short, and then progressively lengthen to a standard interval as the heart takes on the full workload of the training session.

A typical workout,say 20x200 metres, might see a set of intervals as follows (for a particular athlete at one stage of his development):
No.1 x 200m : 25 secs interval.
No.2 x 200m : 35 secs interval.
No.3 x 200m : 45 secs interval.
No.4 x 200m : 55 secs interval.
The next 14x200m run might require a standard interval of 60 seconds.

As fatigue sets in after this, and the “rest” interval required extends to 65 seconds, stop running!

Progress is indicated by an improvement in the required rest interval (i.e. it gets shorter),and also by an increase in the number of repetitions which can be run before the onset of fatigue. In addition, progress should be accompanied by an ability to run the fast section at a greater speed without breaking the top pulse rule (i.e. keeping the maximum pulse rate below 180 per minute), which should occur with ease, and without extra effort.


The usual times taken to run 100 metres vary from 20 seconds for the beginner down to15 seconds for the highly trained athlete. The equivalent figures for 200 metres are 40and 30 seconds, and for 400 metres 80 and 60 seconds, respectively.

The number of repetitions which can be run varies from 10 up to as many as 40.

Even more can be handled by a world record runner. Before the latter state is reached,however, it will be time to progress to other types of training (described later).

Interestingly, during interval training, most development occurs during the interval; this was the conclusion reached by Waldemar Gerschler and Professor Reindel at theFreiburg Sports Institute after many years of research on thousands of subjects."
 
How many reps do you guys find work for two handed swings? I've seen 5, 7, 10.
 
How many reps do you guys find work for two handed swings? I've seen 5, 7, 10.
8. I notice a very subtle power drop on the 9th. It isn't much, almost more a mental difference. But since 8 takes me to about 14 seconds I figure that's good. Above 24 kg, I'm using a Hungarian core blaster which makes the moment arm longer which, when combined with the increased weight, adds about 1-2 second to the total time per set.

When I was doing A+A snatches I was doing 5.
 
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Not exactly answering your questions but the idea of using the HR monitor for A+A got me thinking....

You could use HR recovery as an indicator, and when you take longer than say 60/90s to get back down to 120bpm or so it might indicate it was time to stop the session.

I found this passage in Gordon Pirie's book - "Running fast and injury free" - Olympic Long distance runner.

" During an interval session, a given fast stretch should be run at least 10 times, with the interval between runs being determined by the time required for the athlete to recover physiologically. This can be calculated by monitoring the athlete's pulse rate during the recovery interval.

The aim is to run with sufficient speed to stimulate a highest pulse at the end of the fast stretch of 180 beats per minute; that is, 18 beats in 6 seconds.

Recovery at this top end of the heart's effort occurs so rapidly that the best way to count the pulse rate is electronically. Failing this, measure the pulse rate at the wrist, on the left breast, or on the carotid artery (one only!), using the fingertips. An actual 180 maximum heart rate may be indicated by a 17 count in the first 6 seconds, because of the rapid initial drop of heart rate.

The interval should be run at a continuous trot, and with the same rhythm that is used in the fast run; the breathing rhythm should also be identical. This assists greatly in the recovery process. The interval's length is again decided by the heart's behaviour. When the heart rate has fallen to 120 beats per minute - 12 beats in 6 seconds - the recovery is complete and the next fast stretch can be run.

As one might expect, the interval after the first few fast sections will initially be short, and then progressively lengthen to a standard interval as the heart takes on the full workload of the training session.

A typical workout,say 20x200 metres, might see a set of intervals as follows (for a particular athlete at one stage of his development):
No.1 x 200m : 25 secs interval.
No.2 x 200m : 35 secs interval.
No.3 x 200m : 45 secs interval.
No.4 x 200m : 55 secs interval.
The next 14x200m run might require a standard interval of 60 seconds.

As fatigue sets in after this, and the “rest” interval required extends to 65 seconds, stop running!

Progress is indicated by an improvement in the required rest interval (i.e. it gets shorter),and also by an increase in the number of repetitions which can be run before the onset of fatigue. In addition, progress should be accompanied by an ability to run the fast section at a greater speed without breaking the top pulse rule (i.e. keeping the maximum pulse rate below 180 per minute), which should occur with ease, and without extra effort.


The usual times taken to run 100 metres vary from 20 seconds for the beginner down to15 seconds for the highly trained athlete. The equivalent figures for 200 metres are 40and 30 seconds, and for 400 metres 80 and 60 seconds, respectively.

The number of repetitions which can be run varies from 10 up to as many as 40.

Even more can be handled by a world record runner. Before the latter state is reached,however, it will be time to progress to other types of training (described later).

Interestingly, during interval training, most development occurs during the interval; this was the conclusion reached by Waldemar Gerschler and Professor Reindel at theFreiburg Sports Institute after many years of research on thousands of subjects."
Thanks for the quote! I remember reading the book 10 years ago and liked it a lot. He also mentions weight lifting before training which at the time seemed weird to me :D
 
Dayz said:
How many reps do you guys find work for two handed swings? I've seen 5, 7, 10.

5-7 swings per repeat, for A+A 2H swings. The heaviest bell you can swing well. Explosive and powerful with each swing.
Isn't the duration of the work set the key variable rather than the number of repetitions?
 
Dayz said:
How many reps do you guys find work for two handed swings? I've seen 5, 7, 10.


Isn't the duration of the work set the key variable rather than the number of repetitions?

It's a significant depletion of PCr, which usually corresponds to duration, but not exactly. The amount of muscular contraction is the other factor. If you can do good, powerful. heavy swings, you can usually get the effect with less of them, because there's a lot of fast-twitch muscular contraction going on during that time. If you can do so-so swings, it takes more of them to have the effect and deplete the available on-board fuel, and it's not going to target the adaptation quite as well. If you do easy, soft swings, it's not going to happen in any short duration, and you won't target the fast fibers nearly as well (although there will be other adaptations... can be perfectly valid training targets... just not in this context). So, it's more than just the number of swings (or snatches, or other movement). It needs to be a good, hard, powerful, explosive effort.
 
It's a significant depletion of PCr, which usually corresponds to duration, but not exactly. The amount of muscular contraction is the other factor. If you can do good, powerful. heavy swings, you can usually get the effect with less of them...
Is a slight but noticeable drop off in power then a better marker that sort of combines duration and total effort?
 
Is a slight but noticeable drop off in power then a better marker that sort of combines duration and total effort?

I think it can be, yes. But more to get you in the ballpark for the right approach for you, not a variable to try to re calibrate every day. Once you have your weight/reps to use, just use it consistently unless you feel things change over time.
 
Thank you! That's what I"ve been doing. Tested first few sessions, experimented with different number of reps and rarely re-check by adding or subtracting one. So far pretty stable.
 
Not exactly answering your questions but the idea of using the HR monitor for A+A got me thinking....

You could use HR recovery as an indicator, and when you take longer than say 60/90s to get back down to 120bpm or so it might indicate it was time to stop the session.

I found this passage in Gordon Pirie's book - "Running fast and injury free" - Olympic Long distance runner.

" During an interval session, a given fast stretch should be run at least 10 times, with the interval between runs being determined by the time required for the athlete to recover physiologically. This can be calculated by monitoring the athlete's pulse rate during the recovery interval.

The aim is to run with sufficient speed to stimulate a highest pulse at the end of the fast stretch of 180 beats per minute; that is, 18 beats in 6 seconds.

Recovery at this top end of the heart's effort occurs so rapidly that the best way to count the pulse rate is electronically. Failing this, measure the pulse rate at the wrist, on the left breast, or on the carotid artery (one only!), using the fingertips. An actual 180 maximum heart rate may be indicated by a 17 count in the first 6 seconds, because of the rapid initial drop of heart rate.

The interval should be run at a continuous trot, and with the same rhythm that is used in the fast run; the breathing rhythm should also be identical. This assists greatly in the recovery process. The interval's length is again decided by the heart's behaviour. When the heart rate has fallen to 120 beats per minute - 12 beats in 6 seconds - the recovery is complete and the next fast stretch can be run.

As one might expect, the interval after the first few fast sections will initially be short, and then progressively lengthen to a standard interval as the heart takes on the full workload of the training session.

A typical workout,say 20x200 metres, might see a set of intervals as follows (for a particular athlete at one stage of his development):
No.1 x 200m : 25 secs interval.
No.2 x 200m : 35 secs interval.
No.3 x 200m : 45 secs interval.
No.4 x 200m : 55 secs interval.
The next 14x200m run might require a standard interval of 60 seconds.

As fatigue sets in after this, and the “rest” interval required extends to 65 seconds, stop running!

Progress is indicated by an improvement in the required rest interval (i.e. it gets shorter),and also by an increase in the number of repetitions which can be run before the onset of fatigue. In addition, progress should be accompanied by an ability to run the fast section at a greater speed without breaking the top pulse rule (i.e. keeping the maximum pulse rate below 180 per minute), which should occur with ease, and without extra effort.


The usual times taken to run 100 metres vary from 20 seconds for the beginner down to15 seconds for the highly trained athlete. The equivalent figures for 200 metres are 40and 30 seconds, and for 400 metres 80 and 60 seconds, respectively.

The number of repetitions which can be run varies from 10 up to as many as 40.

Even more can be handled by a world record runner. Before the latter state is reached,however, it will be time to progress to other types of training (described later).

Interestingly, during interval training, most development occurs during the interval; this was the conclusion reached by Waldemar Gerschler and Professor Reindel at theFreiburg Sports Institute after many years of research on thousands of subjects."

@kiwipete, that's some great advice right there. I honestly have not thought about the time between intervals for recovery as a measurement as to when to halt a given session.

Generally, I do the set, resuming again when my heart rate is between 110-115 BPM. I might definitely look into how long it takes me to get to a lower heart rate and when it exceeds 90 seconds to recover then I'll consider the session ended.

Being trained in science and engineering numbers and maths are things not far from my mind and this looks like a great way to 'govern' the training session length with the occasional session where I go beyond the interval (channeling Simple and Sinister here). I think, normally, staying within the interval is how I'll run it.

What's the opinion about timing rest intervals versus a more 'timeless' recovery between sets when it comes to A+A training? It seems that being able to recover quicker and do more work before the 'recovery interval' exceeds 90 is a good way to avoid overtraining with this system.
 
@kiwipete, that's some great advice right there. I honestly have not thought about the time between intervals for recovery as a measurement as to when to halt a given session.

Generally, I do the set, resuming again when my heart rate is between 110-115 BPM. I might definitely look into how long it takes me to get to a lower heart rate and when it exceeds 90 seconds to recover then I'll consider the session ended.

Being trained in science and engineering numbers and maths are things not far from my mind and this looks like a great way to 'govern' the training session length with the occasional session where I go beyond the interval (channeling Simple and Sinister here). I think, normally, staying within the interval is how I'll run it.

What's the opinion about timing rest intervals versus a more 'timeless' recovery between sets when it comes to A+A training? It seems that being able to recover quicker and do more work before the 'recovery interval' exceeds 90 is a good way to avoid overtraining with this system.
I tend to do all my rounds on the minute so I guess I do 10-15 seconds of work and 45-50 seconds of rest. Due to joint issues I only do swings so my rounds are pretty quick. I also do a little less rounds than most since I work with less rest. I don’t know if I am right or wrong but it works for me just fine.
 
Five 32kg snatches takes me 12 seconds. Recovery time varies but is usually ~1 minute for the first half hour, then I "budget" 1:18 for a repeat every 90 seconds. That's usually accurate for dropping my heartrate to <110. Yesterday, though, "the Princess kissed the frog" and I hit 50 repeats in an hour. Confession, I did rush my last repeat a touch to make it in an hour.

Since I've hit anywhere from 38/hour to 50/hour in the past few weeks, a lot obviously comes into play. It's warmer an more humid here than most places, plus sleep and your mindset (daily) factor in. Also, some days you just got it and some days you don't. I say this after months of 40-50 repeats 3 days a week.
 
I tend to do all my rounds on the minute so I guess I do 10-15 seconds of work and 45-50 seconds of rest. Due to joint issues I only do swings so my rounds are pretty quick. I also do a little less rounds than most since I work with less rest. I don’t know if I am right or wrong but it works for me just fine.

Trial run with the following sequence below with 90 or fewer seconds of rest for a timed Alactic and Aerobic was this morning:

Couplet One:

2 KB Jerk @ 2/32KG x 1
Military Press 32KG x 1/1

Couplet Two:

2 KB Jerk @ 2/32KG x 2
2 KB Front Squat @ 2/32KG x 1

Couplet Three:

2 KB Jerk @ 2/32KG x 3
Hand Release Pushups x 3

Ran through the sequence above 3x times for a total of nine couplets before recovery busted the 90 second time limit (getting to 120 BPM or below). I'll use that as a baseline for subsequent A&A sessions in the future, most likely going to be in October following a Powerlifting Meet in Pearl Harbor which I'd been training for since January before the pandemic disrupted my barbell training (largely Wendler 5/3/1). Next week the gyms open up, albeit at half intended capacity, on our base. I'm now quite interested to see how relying entirely on hardstyle kettlebell training produces any sort of 'what the hell' effects this time (as compared to January this year's WTH Effect.)
 
I don't use a HRM for strength sessions except occasionally for curiosity. It doesn't provide much useful information relative to strength work sets and recovery. You'll see your HR go up and you'll see it go down, but going down doesn't tell you you're recovered enough for the next set, for strength work. For general strength-building, you should rest longer than just letting it go down, or a talk test. The goal is to get close to full ATP and creatine phosphate (PCr) restoration so you can express your full strength on the next set. Heart rate doesn't tell you the state of this. It takes 3-5 minutes for this recovery, generally speaking, though obviously it depends how much the work set depleted it (like you said, a double may need only 90 sec whereas 5 reps may need 3 min).



Yes, the high tension. Also related, the HR is spiked by the sympathetic nervous system response to doing something hard.

The HR can go up for many reasons, and what makes it go up in steady-state cardio is different from what makes it go up with strength training. A+A has some components of both, so we make use of the information, but it is only one source. It can be particularly useful sometimes because it's an objective measure, but it doesn't tell you anywhere near everything about what's going on physiologically during training.

Thanks Anna. Your insights are solid- no doubt gleaned from much experience.

Much appreciated :)
 
Looks like I need to buy some real KB now. Instead of just the loadable KB I use for heavy swings.
 
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