Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic

[barrak]

I ventured into A+A snatches recently for the first time.

On my first attempt I did 5 reps on 1m15s @ 24kg. My heart rate never really got over 113, so the next session I went OTM and got up to 120.
Yesterday I snatched a 28 on 1m15s.
Max HR 128, recovering to below 100 every set for 20 repeats.

Prior to this, I haven't really snatched over 20kg much, although I did a fair amount of those prepping for the 5 min snatch test.

I am aiming for a slow buildup of volume to keep my shoulders happy. (My left shoulder barks at me occasionally!). Something like 12/16/20, 14/18/22, 16/20/24, etc.

I'm doing 2 days a week pure strength training and 2 days A+A snatches plus some low intensity jogging and swimming when I feel like it.

Am I on the right track? 24 or 28kg? Safer to go 24 to build up some resilience in my left shoulder? Or is that looking too light from the HR data (I'm 57 y.o) ?

Thank you.

If you haven't received direct SFG snatch training, I encourage you to study the following gem of a thread. If your shoulder bothers you during snatches but not during swings and overhead mobility is not an issue, then you may have the same issue I had: I self learned the snatch by progressing from the high pull and I never eliminated it from my snatch form. This thread set me straight. Now I think: Pull low - Float up.

Kettlebell - Another great slow-mo demo - the Snatch

 

[Davidlbn]

.@Davidlbn

If you haven't received direct SFG snatch training, I encourage you to study the following gem of a thread. If your shoulder bothers you during snatches but not during swings and overhead mobility is not an issue, then you may have the same issue I had: I self learned the snatch by progressing from the high pull and I never eliminated it from my snatch form. This thread set me straight. Now I think: Pull low - Float up.

Kettlebell - Another great slow-mo demo - the Snatch

I didn't go the high pull route. I tried it briefly and it wasn't helping much. Then I came across something by Geoff Neupert. It basically went like this: you've learned to clean and press. Just snatch. And I did. And it worked . Obviously there's been some improvement and refinement since then, there always is.
What I like about that video is how much he tames the arc both on the way up and down. Good stuff. Thank you.

 

[DuncanGB]

Err on the side of caution; if 24kg feels a little too light... just snatch it faster. And throw some juice in it on the way down.

In Easy Strength, the Specific Training for Characteristics of Movement section of the book, Pavel writes:

​

... we have always advocated snatching as explosively as possible. However, we did not switch to lighter bells and thus maximized the overspeed eccentric overload effect until Kenneth Jay's [strength coach for several Danish Olympic teams and University of Copenhagen researcher] unexpected, penicillin-like discovery.​

​

The Danish researcher had set out to develop the most effective protocol for cardiovascular training. Having done his research, the Dane of Pain developed his VO2 max protocol using 16-kg kettlebells. Imagine his surprise when the subjects saw a dramatic increase in their vertical jump! As stated by Master RKC Mark Reifkind, who has been the most vocal proponent of going lighter and faster in kettlebell snatches, Kenneth has given us the "permission to go light." ...​

​

Because the kettlebell travels a greater distance in the snatch than in the swing and has a chance to accumulate incredible kinetic energy, it has to be very light for the girevik to feel safe to accelerate it on the way down. If the bell is too heavy, he will not be giving it an overspeed eccentric and will miss out on the training effects of this amazing modality. A 16 kg hits the spot for most trained men. A 24 kg is enough for very strong men.​

​

I believe one more reason that performing overspeed eccentric snatches with a light kettlebell is so effective in promoting explosiveness is nervous system disinhibition. Normally, you are subconsciously holding back and not expressing all your power out of a preprogrammed fear of injury. After having performed a number of fast snatches safely, you ease off on the brakes and really let it rip. But this will only happen if the bell is very light.​

 

[KLB81]

Trying to find exactly what "Doing A + A Snatches" means

It is doing the set of Snatches and then resting until HR goes down (Blue zone?) then do next set?

In other words HR monitoring as an alternative to "Talk Test"?

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

Very good point, mostly for either weight (unless it is really heavy)

It's a good advise, but it requires very sharp focus to keep the technique safe while increasing speed, especially if there's a hiccup in the shoulder. Mostly a matter of experience to get it right, just saying...

Trying to find exactly what "Doing A + A Snatches" means

It is doing the set of Snatches and then resting until HR goes down (Blue zone?) then do next set?

In other words HR monitoring as an alternative to "Talk Test"?

No need for HR monitor (though it can be fun and/or interesting). Just going by perceived effort and feeling "ready to go again" works very well. I've done both and found the "by feel" method correlates quite well with Polar HR monitor

 

[KLB81]

s quite well with Polar HR monito

When you use monitor what number to you look for?

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

When you use monitor what number to you look for?

Haven't done A+A for quite a few months but I based number on my walking around, fully warmed up HR which is low 90's as I remember. My resting HR is about 48

 

[KLB81]

Thanks for the responses

Do A+A and AGT mean the same thing, what would the difference be?

If I wanted to add some of this type of Rowing to my S&S that would mean rowing +/- 30 mins near My MAF number (about 135-140) Correct?

 

[Anna C]

When you use monitor what number to you look for?

Do you have a display with your HRM? A pattern such as this usually suggests that you've got a good response on both exertion and recovery. You may see some variation on what the peak number is, how long it takes to get to the recovery area, and what those numbers tend to be.



If your recovery is inadequate, you'll see smaller valleys, an upward trend over time (beyond the first few repeats/sets), and you'll likely also notice that in your breathing, and the session will feel like it takes more out of you and you'll feel less recovered the next day.

 

[Anna C]

Do A+A and AGT mean the same thing, what would the difference be?

A+A is a particular form of Anti-Glycolytic Training. There are others.

If I wanted to add some of this type of Rowing to my S&S that would mean rowing +/- 30 mins near My MAF number (about 135-140) Correct?

Sounds right! For actual Maffetone method in steady state exercise, you would stay under the MAF number, not just hover around it or hit it as an average.

 

[GeoffreyLevens]

Do you have a display with your HRM? A pattern such as this usually suggests that you've got a good response on both exertion and recovery. You may see some variation on what the peak number is, how long it takes to get to the recovery area, and what those numbers tend to be.

View attachment 12473

If your recovery is inadequate, you'll see smaller valleys, an upward trend over time (beyond the first few repeats/sets), and you'll likely also notice that in your breathing, and the session will feel like it takes more out of you and you'll feel less recovered the next day.

I never recorded, not sure my monitor even had capability of doing that (older version). But by feel that is how my recovery felt and when it started to have shallower valleys and higher peaks, that's when I'd end the session

 

[Snowman]

Because the kettlebell travels a greater distance in the snatch than in the swing and has a chance to accumulate incredible kinetic energy, it has to be very light for the girevik to feel safe to accelerate it on the way down. If the bell is too heavy, he will not be giving it an overspeed eccentric and will miss out on the training effects of this amazing modality. A 16 kg hits the spot for most trained men. A 24 kg is enough for very strong men.I believe one more reason that performing overspeed eccentric snatches with a light kettlebell is so effective in promoting explosiveness is nervous system disinhibition. Normally, you are subconsciously holding back and not expressing all your power out of a preprogrammed fear of injury. After having performed a number of fast snatches safely, you ease off on the brakes and really let it rip. But this will only happen if the bell is very light.

I actually remember reading this, back in the day when VWC came out. That was still a while before I started using KB's consistently. I would just randomly do a VWC session a few times a month and tear the crap out of my hands every time

Keep in mind, there is a lot of nuance there. If you don't overspeed a heavy 'bell at all, and you aggressively overspeed a light 'bell for the whole downswing, it stands to reason that you can do some in-between overspeeding on in-between sizes. The most difficult part of the downswing to control (for me) is from the lockout down to the chest. With medium sized 'bells I'll start my active downswing (ie overspeed) when my hand is around chest level. This puts a little extra juice into the next snatch without messing with the technique of my downswing.

 

[DuncanGB]

I actually remember reading this, back in the day when VWC came out. That was still a while before I started using KB's consistently. I would just randomly do a VWC session a few times a month and tear the crap out of my hands every time

I guess that’s another reason why Jay earned his moniker, “The Dane of Pain” !! Interesting to note that he now seems to emphasize the importance of more traditional forms of cardio: "The Cardio Code" (Book Review) - looks highly relevant to the crucial flip-side of the A+A coin.

Keep in mind, there is a lot of nuance there. If you don't overspeed a heavy 'bell at all, and you aggressively overspeed a light 'bell for the whole downswing, it stands to reason that you can do some in-between overspeeding on in-between sizes.

Totally agree. I quoted the passage as it serves as a good reminder not to underestimate snatching lighter bells (another item to add to the list of why you shouldn’t off-load your 16-kg) as well as reinforcing your point about the juice [I like your term “throw some juice in it” much better than “overspeed eccentric” btw!]

I’ve really enjoyed progressing with the snatch heavy, through medium to light, then back to heavy again over the last ten months:

A+A is ideal for snatching heavier

Q&D 015 for snatches works great as prep. for 044 with a medium bell

And programs like this one by @CMarker work really well with a lighter bell:

Energy Systems and the Snatch Test | StrongFirst

A perfect application of Strong Endurance™ protocols to the 5-minute snatch test. The science behind this method should help you dominate this 5-minute strength endurance challenge like never before.

www.strongfirst.com

Was delighted to find this kind of overall approach, which I stumbled into out of sheer dumb-luck, validated by @Tony Gracia 's recent and excellent article:

The Snatch Pyramid: Optimize Your Snatch Training | StrongFirst

Take your high-volume kettlebell snatches to the next level.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Rick213]

I guess that’s another reason why Jay earned his moniker, “The Dane of Pain” !! Interesting to note that he now seems to emphasize the importance of more traditional forms of cardio: "The Cardio Code" (Book Review) - looks highly relevant to the crucial flip-side of the A+A coin.


Totally agree. I quoted the passage as it serves as a good reminder not to underestimate snatching lighter bells (another item to add to the list of why you shouldn’t off-load your 16-kg) as well as reinforcing your point about the juice [I like your term “throw some juice in it” much better than “overspeed eccentric” btw!]

I’ve really enjoyed progressing with the snatch heavy, through medium to light, then back to heavy again over the last ten months:

A+A is ideal for snatching heavier

Q&D 015 for snatches works great as prep. for 044 with a medium bell

And programs like this one by @CMarker work really well with a lighter bell:

Energy Systems and the Snatch Test | StrongFirst

A perfect application of Strong Endurance™ protocols to the 5-minute snatch test. The science behind this method should help you dominate this 5-minute strength endurance challenge like never before.

www.strongfirst.com

Was delighted to find this kind of overall approach, which I stumbled into out of sheer dumb-luck, validated by @Tony Gracia 's recent and excellent article:

The Snatch Pyramid: Optimize Your Snatch Training | StrongFirst

Take your high-volume kettlebell snatches to the next level.

www.strongfirst.com

So you run 015 timing with snatches as only movement?

 

[Steve Freides]

With medium sized 'bells I'll start my active downswing (ie overspeed) when my hand is around chest level. This puts a little extra juice into the next snatch without messing with the technique of my downswing.

Doing this would improve a lot of people's snatch test - it "loads the spring." It stores energy. The real grind in the snatch test comes from only absorbing enough force on the descent to slow the bell to a stop without storing some energy for the next rep.

-S-

 

[Snowman]

Doing this would improve a lot of people's snatch test - it "loads the spring." It stores energy. The real grind in the snatch test comes from only absorbing enough force on the descent to slow the bell to a stop without storing some energy for the next rep.

-S-

Definitely. I haven't thought about it as a tool for efficiency, but I really notice a better rebound out of the hole. On days I'm feeling a little slower or weaker and don't do as much of an active downswing, the 'bell definitely pulls me down more and it turns into a fast grind.

 

[Alexander Halford]

On days I'm feeling a little slower or weaker and don't do as much of an active downswing, the 'bell definitely pulls me down more and it turns into a fast grind.

Yes, happens to me too. I find that absorbing the fall leaning back with unlocked knees eases on the bell pulling down and loads the hips for backswing better. Also this allows not to "t-rex" the arm pulling the elbow down, hence more trajectory and more speed.

 

[Steve Freides]

Definitely. I haven't thought about it as a tool for efficiency, but I really notice a better rebound out of the hole. On days I'm feeling a little slower or weaker and don't do as much of an active downswing, the 'bell definitely pulls me down more and it turns into a fast grind.

I don't know if I'd call this improvement efficiency, although I suppose if you're less tired at the end, it must be ... I think it's two-fold: you're getting energy from the bell moving backwards to store, and you're also not working as hard to bring it to a dead stop.

Physics of this sort isn't my thing - I just know it's better.

-S-

 

[WxHerk]

Physics of this sort isn't my thing - I just know it's better.

-S-

Didn’t Pavel T himself say that “understanding is a delaying tactic?”

 

[Manuel Fortin]

Since this thread has been revived, I will add another advantage of A+A snatching: the results are long lasting and are not lost rapidly if you switch to other stuff. This is my third year of A+A snatching. I started with the 24 and a bit of 32 the first year, then moved to only 32, and this year I did 2 months with the 32 and am now working with the 36. In the summer, I don't snatch much as I play tennis 4-6 times a week (mostly training, and 1 match a week, 2 once in a while). I don't do the crazy snatching volumes that many do. I didn't do exact stats, but most weeks are less than 60 repeats of 5 and I snatch about 1 to 1 1/2 hours a week, in 3 sessions.

In July I tore my groin on a poorly maintained tennis court. That was a bad tear. I could barely walk the next day, and it took me 1 month before I could jog. I can still feel a stretch in the injured muscle when I go to the end of my range of motion. So, I snatched up to May (lockdowns closed tennis courts until then), then mostly played tennis up to early July, then did nothing for 1 month or so except walking and practicing my serve. In August, I started playing tennis again, but no snatch. I started snatching again on October 15. I was able to snatch the 32 immediately for 16 reps of 5. Endurance was lost a bit and I was pretty tired in the arms at the end of the session, but by mid December, I did 32 reps of 5 and was ready to move to a heavier weight.

TLDR: I stopped snatching and doing any strength work for more than 5 months, during which I was injured for a whole month, and when I got back to snatching, it took me about 6 weeks before I was as good at snatching than I was at the end of last winter.

That was a big surprise. Of course, I did not stop moving for the whole 5 months, but for that period I did not do much strength training. Maybe 10 getups and 100 snatches a month before the injury, and only rehab after (bodyweight squats and getups mostly).

As an additional bonus, last Friday I felt that my body required a bit of a change from snatches and set on 1H swings. I was able to achieve the timed simple standard for swings without having done any sets of more than 5 reps of anything for close to a year. When I was doing Simple and Sinister many years ago, I was not able to get to timed simple after 8 months and I then switched to other things.