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Kettlebell Alactic + Aerobic

cmerrow

Level 6 Valued Member
I'm not a "snatcher" but I can attest to the efficacy of A+A swings being complimentary to Q&D.

During my first cycle of Q&D (12 weeks), I rotated 24kg and 28kg swings. Some of the sessions felt pretty difficult at times (judging by breathing & HR recovery).

I just finished 6 weeks of an A+A-type plan outlined by Geoff Neupert, working 32kg swings EMOM for 20 minutes (starting with 5 reps and finishing the cycle with 8). I was careful not to feel overexerted, although my hands took a good beating toward the end.

I'm not sure if this would be considered "truly" A+A training, but from what I understand (and in conversations with Geoff) it comes very close. I'm into my second week of the second Q&D cycle and so far I've used the 28kg exclusively for all sessions. Even 5 series of 10/2 last week almost seemed like a breeze. I'm going to bet I can work in the 32kg on my third go-round. I'll probably need to invest in a heavier 'bell this year...

Still contemplating how I'll want to approach an A+A block prior to then.
 

Manuel Fortin

Level 6 Valued Member
groin pulls are notoriously slow to heal - based on those people I know who've had them, I'd say you made a pretty quick recovery.
I was myself surprised by how long it took to be back to even jogging slowly. I attribute the recovery to all I learned from this forum over the years, which seems to have done wonder for many broken bodies. From many posts, I now always follow the same protocol after a muscle injury (caveat: I am not a doctor, and I don't even play one on TV):
1 - Get back to moving as soon as possible, but see #2.
2 - If it hurts, don't do it. A bit of pain that goes away as you warm up may be acceptable, as long as you don't regress. If you do something and it hurts more the day after, you went too fast (a bit of soreness is acceptable, pain is not). Even then, it's not a contest about how tough you are. There may be exceptions for people who have been really broken in which pain is inevitable, but this seems to be a very good guideline for someone not working under professional supervision.
3 - Start with what you can do. That usually means restricted range of motion and very small load. Increase from there gradually. Always keep 2 in mind.
4 - I am not a pro athlete. This is not a race. The goal is to recover normal function eventually, if possible. See #2 (I think you will see a pattern developing now). If you need a break one day, take it. If you hit a plateau and do the same thing for a few weeks, that's where you are.
5 - Be humble and patient. When I started squatting again, I had to do body weight squats assisted with my arms. That's OK. I am now back to goblet squats with the 40kg and started doing Zercher squats (load still limited by injury recovery). I went up to 165lbs, but that was not comfortable in the groin and is still far from my strength limit. 135-145 is probably the sweet spot for now. See #2 ;)
6 - I do Original Strength work (mostly deadbugs, bird dogs and rocking, but also a bit of rolling), along with hip flexor stretches 5 times a week. I have no idea if this is required for healing or not, but my body feels good when I do it. Deadbugs definitively work the area that was injured and it's getting stronger.

I got all this from this forum. So, I thank everyone who has posted injuries and recovery over the years.
 

Rick213

Level 6 Valued Member
I was myself surprised by how long it took to be back to even jogging slowly. I attribute the recovery to all I learned from this forum over the years, which seems to have done wonder for many broken bodies. From many posts, I now always follow the same protocol after a muscle injury (caveat: I am not a doctor, and I don't even play one on TV):
1 - Get back to moving as soon as possible, but see #2.
2 - If it hurts, don't do it. A bit of pain that goes away as you warm up may be acceptable, as long as you don't regress. If you do something and it hurts more the day after, you went too fast (a bit of soreness is acceptable, pain is not). Even then, it's not a contest about how tough you are. There may be exceptions for people who have been really broken in which pain is inevitable, but this seems to be a very good guideline for someone not working under professional supervision.
3 - Start with what you can do. That usually means restricted range of motion and very small load. Increase from there gradually. Always keep 2 in mind.
4 - I am not a pro athlete. This is not a race. The goal is to recover normal function eventually, if possible. See #2 (I think you will see a pattern developing now). If you need a break one day, take it. If you hit a plateau and do the same thing for a few weeks, that's where you are.
5 - Be humble and patient. When I started squatting again, I had to do body weight squats assisted with my arms. That's OK. I am now back to goblet squats with the 40kg and started doing Zercher squats (load still limited by injury recovery). I went up to 165lbs, but that was not comfortable in the groin and is still far from my strength limit. 135-145 is probably the sweet spot for now. See #2 ;)
6 - I do Original Strength work (mostly deadbugs, bird dogs and rocking, but also a bit of rolling), along with hip flexor stretches 5 times a week. I have no idea if this is required for healing or not, but my body feels good when I do it. Deadbugs definitively work the area that was injured and it's getting stronger.

I got all this from this forum. So, I thank everyone who has posted injuries and recovery over the years.
Dead bugs have been a revelation after years of hanging leg raises and front lever work.
 

KLB81

Level 2 Valued Member
Here is my attempt at some A+A work -39 Male 6'0"" 190 LBS

Currently doing S&S on 2/10 with 16 and 8/10 24 for both Swings and TGU, I want to mix in some of this a few days a week and still make the S&S progressions every 4 weeks

Frist Screenshot is last 12 mins of 32 Min session all with 16KG of

EMOM

0:00 7 LH Swings
1:00 7 RH Swings
2:00 7 LH VPP
3:00 7 RH VPP
...... Repeat 8 cycles

IMG_3009.jpg

Second session tried using the 24 KG
EMOM
0:00 5 LH Swings
1:00 5 RH Swings
2:00 3 LH VPP
3:00 3 RH VPP
.... Repeat 6 times

After 24 mins I was running a little hot on the HR monitor (higher spikes are the swings so I finished out last 6 mins with only alternating hands3 VPP no swings Screenshot 2021-01-23 at 8.59.29 AM.png

any comments welcome let me know if I'm on the right track and what other permutations of reps weight and cycle I should consider
 

Anna C

Level 9 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
Sinister
39 Male 6'0"" 190 LBS
Is 39 your age? Overall looks good I think, but maybe HR running just a bit high. I'd give it another 15 or 20 seconds of rest between your repeats, looking at your second session with 24kg. (16kg is probably too light for you to get good A+A work, so that first session has a good pattern, but doesn't tell us much.) Also, make your rest intentional -- shake the limbs, walk, take deep nasal diaphragmatic breaths, tune into your body's sensations. When you feel ready -- and until you know what that feels like, go with the timing you're currently doing + 20 second -- go again. Make sure your swings/VPP are great form and you really dominate that kettlebell, emphasizing power and explosiveness.
 

LarryB

Level 5 Valued Member
Hey all, I’m doing some a+a work on my rop variety days but am getting back to running after taking time off from my marathon in November and am very interested in z2 training. I never worried much about my hr while running and would hold conversation while going at an 8:30 pace, but my hr would be in the 160’s. Now I’m running solo and am actually commuting with a 10-15lb backpack. I can keep my hr down below 140 for the first couple of miles and run like an 11-11:30 pace. Even though i keep that pace my hr starts to climb towards the threshold 150-160. We also have 2ft of snow on the ground right now so i think that’s making it harder too.

my real question though is how can i keep my hr down later in the run? I take walk breaks but as soon as i start up again it climbs. I realize I likely need to build up but just looking for some feedback. Also I’m only using a garmin 235 watch hr monitor so not super accurate. 33 yo male, 6 foot, 220lbs.
 

Coyotl

Level 6 Valued Member
I can keep my hr down below 140 for the first couple of miles and run like an 11-11:30 pace. Even though i keep that pace my hr starts to climb towards the threshold 150-160. We also have 2ft of snow on the ground right now so i think that’s making it harder too.

my real question though is how can i keep my hr down later in the run?
Sounds like you're experiencing cardiac drift. Staying properly hydrated, including electrolytes, and being acclimated to your environment can help, but it will almost always eventually happen.
 

LarryB

Level 5 Valued Member
Sounds like you're experiencing cardiac drift. Staying properly hydrated, including electrolytes, and being acclimated to your environment can help, but it will almost always eventually happen.
I admittedly have not been hydrating since it’s so cold and only 5 miles. I will try that for next time.
 

LarryB

Level 5 Valued Member
Or Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome...
Had never heard of that one. I would actually fit the bill for that pretty well. I’ve been marathon training pretty non stop for two almost two years before the start of my break in November. I would routinely train in the 150’s and above for hours. Definitely interested in building up my true aerobic efficiency.
I want to keep this 4.5 mile commute going would you recommend i increase walk breaks, walk altogether (I don’t want to wake up that much earlier...)?
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
If you need to walk, then walk. The point is to build a foundation of work at or below your AeT. When I switched to this kind of LED training for both running and cycling I was surprised (very surprised) at how slow I had to go at first; especially the thought of walking hills was anathema to me. But as I understood more, and started seeing benefits the ‘easy’ in LED started becoming less slow.
 

Boris Bachmann

Level 6 Valued Member
Sounds like you're experiencing cardiac drift. Staying properly hydrated, including electrolytes, and being acclimated to your environment can help, but it will almost always eventually happen.
I don't know if a couple miles is enough to have a lot of cardiac drift from fluid loss. Might just be the "aerobic deficiency syndrome" ;)
 

LarryB

Level 5 Valued Member
I
I don't know if a couple miles is enough to have a lot of cardiac drift from fluid loss. Might just be the "aerobic deficiency syndrome" ;)
I would tend to agree, couldn’t hurt to bring my little hand bottle though.

I’m posting my hr data from yesterdays run and todays rop session. As I said I only use a garmin wrist watch so accuracy is not high. I just want to know if the data is even worth analyzing and tracking.
Thanks for all the input. i plan on heading out earlier for my commute in the am and start mixing in more brisk walking when the hr is climbing.

run
57D1DC3E-1EA1-451D-865C-54A8AE3AE3BF.png
Rop session from this morning- medium day (1,2) x4
5x10 snatches in ten minutes DBB3327A-04DB-4C1E-9DF7-B6F5CA37F1E6.png
 
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Mark...

Level 4 Valued Member
I have a similar watch ( garmin 245). In my experience the wrist based heart rate is VERY inaccurate, even for steady state cardio like running. So i always use it with a chest strap.
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
Poor hydration (even in short activities) can have a marked negative impact on HR.
Ambient conditions also play a role (especially heat) in increased HR
 

LarryB

Level 5 Valued Member
I have a similar watch ( garmin 245). In my experience the wrist based heart rate is VERY inaccurate, even for steady state cardio like running. So i always use it with a chest strap.
I’ve been contemplating getting one...I’m just so dang cheap! At this point I want my 32kg more than anything. Chest strap next!
 
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