Alactic + Aerobic

Discussion in 'Kettlebell' started by Harald Motz, Sep 1, 2017.

  1. Oscar

    Oscar Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Now I remember how hard it was to translate Freud to non german languages, with all those specific strange words. It kind of sounds like "Lust for function" though, which is more or less the same.
  2. ClaudeR

    ClaudeR Triple-Digit Post Count

    Do Funktionslustige Menschen have Schadenfreude over people with Funktionsfrust?
    Time for a Bratwurst :D
    Antti, Harald Motz, Neuro-Bob and 2 others like this.
  3. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    another time I am comparing my apples then to my oranges now:
    1. 07/27/17
    snatch 40kg - 5rx20 1.PNG

    2. 10/09/17
    snatch 40kg - 5rx20 2.PNG
    Conclusion: to carry on.
  4. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    Wow, quite a difference. 20 repeats in 37 min then, 20 repeats in 24 min now. Plus a lower average HR now. And 5 snatches of the 40kg is serious work.

    So now a philosophical question --- Which session was more work? The variables are the same so physically it is the same amount. However I would say that the earlier one was more work for you, because your HR was elevated higher and for a longer period of time.

    Now a really philosophical question -- Which was a more effective training session?
    Oscar likes this.
  5. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    that I can answer practical: I have no ineffective training session. Every session is a good session There are fluctuations day in day out, but looking over timeframes here I look on ten weeks. There is a clear trend.

    Today it was delightful to snatch. Almost a breeze. Climate may has impact, as the first graph was in Juli, it was warmer then than today, but the point I want to make here is the impact of easy endurance work and far lower than my MAF on a regular basis since July. The introduction of the Indian clubs for active recovery between repeats are also a very good addition.

    The aerobic system is the one that carries and deals with stress be it induced by exercise or life in general. It helps me currently to deal with some volume of relatively heavy ballistics day in day out from week to week.

    Training is one side and recovery the other side of the same coin.
    The Nail and Anna C like this.
  6. The Nail

    The Nail Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I didn't know that, nice. Any articles or books you can point me towards around the topic of aerobic system and handling stress?

    Empirically, I agree. Even with only two weeks of A+A, the effects have been profound. But technically, I'd love to read into it more.

  7. Anna C

    Anna C More than 5000 posts Elite Certified Instructor

    It's fascinating how the way the body tunes itself in response to stimulus.

    For example, thinking of a dedicated S&S practitioner who starts out using a 16kg and over time progresses up to using 40kg or higher. Same body, same training session, but a much greater amount of work performed.

    And from your LSD work, you also demonstrate that a lot of the energy is being supplied by the aerobic system. Highly efficient energy production and expenditure.

    Great stuff.
  8. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    This is great pleasure to me experiencing how I respond to the way I train. Also a key aspect to why I train.

    this year I am in it for about 13months, so newbie gains...for me very promising. (All in all I have with last year's six months plus three for this year 9 months of I dare to say proper aerobic locomotion work accumulated)

    It is in this case a deduction, but doing more work with lower pulse rate shows, that the snatches do not stress me as then.
    I am sure you find something from Phil Maffetone.

    I think the man @aciampa is doing (and also did already) his best. Would be great if he would say just a few words on it. Also @mprevost knows lots from his first hand experience.
    The Nail likes this.
  9. Oscar

    Oscar Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @Harald Motz, thats an amazing improvement over a 2 month period. I mean, reducing the time by 33% and having a lower average HR! I would expect such improvement on a newbie (maybe not even) but not on somebody that has been training consistently many years like you.

    What do you think caused such a change?
  10. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    newbie gains, I have an inclination to be ironic, sometimes. But seriously, I am doing frequent aerobic locomotion training in this period for about 14 weeks now, that is not really long but I think it is already a nice little base. It is about to widen it, currently I have a feeling it is as "simple" as that: staying at 115bpm, 120bpm...up to 140bpm and just going farther over time in the same time frame. That will not go ad infinitum but seems to me like a sure no strenuous way to build up the aerobic fat bio-machinery.

    diligent continuity of the training process over the years and the unfolding synergy of
    A(lactic)+A(erobics) as taught by Al Ciampa. It is work yes, it is hardstyle and softstyle work, but not "hard" work, but it works.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  11. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    A+A keeps me moving and thinking
    from yesterday:
    20-10-17 1.PNG

    from today:
    21-10-17 2.PNG
    21-10-17 1.PNG

    the aerobics enables me to have a good amount of daily alactics and recovering well. I do lots of of "blue zone work" as in the lower heart rates fat metabolism gets triggered and promoted.

    With the rower sometimes I stay flat and like to paint some landscapes with different efforts by my heart. Rowing is more engaging, running is more freedom. Both are good, never boring.

    Between the repeats I have resurrected the Indian clubs to have something easy and relaxing and some awesome thing to immerse into for having an active recovery. And I like sipping some Darjeeling.

    A routine without a program, when technique is decent its all about recovery.
    mark reinke, NoahMarek and rickyw like this.
  12. The Nail

    The Nail Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @Harald Motz looking at this, I might need to experiment with longer rests between repeats.
  13. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    A+A is about power production getting energy replenished while resting. Rest is important for getting stronger and getting more powerful.

    You could experiment on the way you recover. You may go around and shake a bit, focus on breathing, circling just the arms.

    Last year I used breath counting ( a la S&S) and soothing extensively. What I found really helps is to get pauses in the breathing cycles, first after an inhale, just holding a bit which makes it a bit easier to get the exhale a bit slower. With the weeks go on, one can get a slight pause after exhale. Controlling the inhale by the way may take a long long way.

    The hr monitor is a very convenient way to ....monitor.

    As I said,I like the clubs, so I can practice them frequently and there is much less focus to be getting to an amount of volume.
    The Nail likes this.
  14. DavThew

    DavThew More than 500 posts

    @The Nail it's worth trying. I like using my HR monitor for moving between weights in a session. Snatching a heavier weight demands a few seconds more recovery than a light one and the monitor really helps. I'm sure that some bright spark out there might work out how this relates to progressing in weight, but I will stick to going by feel.
    The Nail likes this.
  15. ali

    ali Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    HR monitoring is interesting and informative providing great feedback for training and learning about your stuff in your body.
    A fine day today and I was out sprinting. I have delusions that I'm still quick and explosive so I like to indulge in some therapy. Block starts, full power to 15 metres, decelerate and rest a couple minutes x 5 and then 2 X 30 m full on acceleration and 5 minute rest.
    My maf is 127. S&S sessions hover there, spikes no higher than 130 ish for a routine session. My breathing at 130 is borderline nasal recovery, a bit more and I need to huff and puff a little to blow off before nasal breathing again. Yet a max effort explosive start puts my hr to 140 and breathing is easy, no huffy puffy. It is really hard to not do more because the effort feels easy, yet the feedback says otherwise!!
    No idea how all this ties together but there is power, cardio output via HR, ventilation rate (VR) and CNS involvement with all the neuro-endocrine shenanigans. And it is the latter that can distort your perception of what is going on and why activities with a high neural load need to be curbed, perhaps. Different for all of us of course but thought it an interesting comparison as we, or I certainly do, tend to see HR and VR as a close match, S&S, A&A, Maf, nasal breathing etc. Then there is HR and neural load with VR being out of sync. Fun and games.
  16. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    snatch 44kg right side.

    practiced 5repeats for five on each side, to see how the weight feels. Did lots of A+A with 40kg last year. I think I can incorporate the 44kg just a bit. Two years of A+A work, I will go on for just another year.
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  17. Harald Motz

    Harald Motz Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    snatch 40kg - 5rx40.PNG
    snatch 40kg - 5rx40 - 64:15min - 130avg/146max

    On Saturday I went for some volume on the A+A snatches as I did not snatch for five days. I still find enjoyment to just snatch and rest. The next day I had just hints of feedback from my hams, glutes, quads, traps, shoulder, grip in a harmonized manner.
  18. The Nail

    The Nail Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I laughed out loud.
    NoahMarek likes this.
  19. Groove Greaser

    Groove Greaser Triple-Digit Post Count

    I've been considering integrating Indian clubs into my practice for this same reason. What movements do you use (for pairing with swings specifically). What weight?

    Apologies for dragging up an old post - but this is right in line with what I've been wondering about! (No pressure if "Just do S&S and don't sweat auxiliary work yet" is the right response. :p)
  20. mark reinke

    mark reinke Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    I began including Indian club work between repeats of heavy swings and/or snatches for my elbow health.

    I do all kinds of club movements and pretty much settle on what feels best at the time. I am no expert with them, but have viewed Dr Ed Thomas's club swinging DVD, and have practiced with them a lot over the past 12 months.

    My thoughts:

    1. go lighter than you think on the club work.
    2. Try to find the movements that allow you to RELAX the most between sets.
    3. Don't be afraid to "play" a little if it allows you to stay more relaxed.

    Can we assume that you are not pushing the time to complete your swings down? Can you maintain easy nasal breathing during the training?



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