new posts all posts post new thread

Old Forum Andrew Read says most people shouldn't press.

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Jeff

Level 6 Valued Member
This is already in another thread, but I would hate for it to get buried since it could be its own topic.

Andrew Read, Master RKC, makes a case that for most people, pressing inevitably leads to injury due to the type of AC joint most people have.  That is a pretty significant statement.  I would like to throw it out here for the SF experts to comment on.  Do you agree or disagree with statement, and why?

http://breakingmuscle.com/kettlebells/single-kettlebell-ballistic-complexes-how-to-save-your-shoulders-and-keep-pressing

 

 

 

 

 
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
I don't believe that "pressing inevitably leads to injury."   It's not pressing that causes injury - it's how _you_ press that causes injury, to put a new twist on an old Dan John line about squatting.

Careful or I'll tell you what I really think. :)

-S-

 

 
 

Jeff

Level 6 Valued Member
Steve,

I have much respect for you and always enjoy reading your posts.  But, I think your response here totally side steps the question.

Do some people have AC structures that make pressing much more likely to lead to injury?  If true, then what should people with the type II or III AC joint structure do?

Maybe the word "inevitable" is too strong?
 

Rob Lawrence

Level 3 Valued Member
Completely disagree. I have had injuries that resulted from too much pressing without enough pulling. They went away completely after I learned to balance with pulls. Also, learning to press with the lat is key.

There is a certain type of trainer where, the more they know about anatomy, the more likely they are to see/imagine potential sources of injury at every turn. It's kind of like what Henry Ford said about experts: no sooner is a man is an expert than he becomes an expert on why something can't be done.

The best trainers are either "black box" and claim either to know absolutely nothing about why things work (Steve Baccari), or make a full, deep inquiry into important questions (Brett Jones). I am not particularly interested in anyone else's views on dangerous exercises and injuries.
 

Rob Lawrence

Level 3 Valued Member
I lashed out a bit soon and (gasp) went and read the article. The piece as written actually doesn't claim anything super-extreme. I still find the notion that 2/3 of people don't have shoulders built for pressing over-the-top.
 

Mark Limbaga

Level 7 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
To put it simply, show me the client. There are people who will truly benefit from pressing and others who have to find an alternative approach
 

RobertS

Level 2 Valued Member
Interesting. I think that once you introduce a high volume of swimming into the equation, as the author describes (i.e. 'Ironman' training) then shoulders immediately become an issue. In my experience the swimming world is fraught with shoulder problems. While I am on RoP my swimming mileage has dropped to almost diddly (about 25-50 mins in the pool per week).

I will make a note of that ballistic training template for possible future use though. It sounds like a sensible approach for swimmers.
 

kris

Level 3 Valued Member
Master RKC Andrew Read is wrong. The Acromioclavicular joint ( AC ) " is a common site of injury for athletes involves in contact and collision sports such as Australian football and rugby ( league and union ), and throwing sports such as shot put

Christine / Sports Médecines Australia member  / Safety-Prevention - Advice

SMA.ORG.AU/ AC joint

 
 

Jeff

Level 6 Valued Member
Christine,

Why is Andrew Read wrong?  Because the AC joint is a common site for injury for collision sports and throwing sports?  The one neither proves nor disproves the other.
 

Matt604

Level 6 Valued Member
Interesting discussion.

Rippetoe advocates shrugging at the top of the barbell press in order to avoid shoulder impingement.  I have noticed some minor shoulder soreness double pressing KBs with lats firing and an "anti-shrug" throughout the movement that I never experienced in several years of pressing a barbell the Rippetoe way (traps firing, shrugged at the top).  No idea if what I'm feeling has anything to do with this impingement issue.
 

Jason Paul

Level 3 Valued Member
I can't comment on pressing causing injury. But, I can very much relate to the article.

When I was 4-5 years old, I broke my collarbone, which I think was also an AC separation (symptoms, and my bone sticks up on that side). Presses have always been somewhat painful (sometimes very, for days), and I've never been able to make much progress.

That said, there's little to no pain holding kettlebells in the rack or overhead. What hurts the most is going through the range of maybe 30% to 70% of the press movement.

So, as he prescribes in the article, jerks don't hurt much, and push presses may hurt a little more. Also, I can do TGUs with little to no pain. This is because there's little to no load on the shoulder (at the "wrong" angle for me) for those exercises due to momentum.

I was wanting to try Dan John's 10,000 swing challenge, and do presses between the sets. I tried it one day and my shoulder hurt pretty badly for three days afterward. I can do two sets of five without much trouble, but that program had a total of 30 reps, and I think it was just too much for me.
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Jeffrey, thank you for your kind words.   A lot of people have gotten hurt pressing badly.   I don't believe that pressing is bad for 2/3 of the population.   A lot of people have gotten hut dead lifting badly, too, and squatting badly, too.  Are there people who shouldn't press?  No doubt there are, but not 2/3 of the population.

-S-
 

amdemarais

Level 5 Valued Member
In 2003 I had a grade 2 AC separation from a football collision.  This again happened on my other shoulder in 2006 during a football game.  My shoulders aren't perfect, but have been much improved over the past 5 years in which I have incorporated KB Presses and TGU's into my routine.  I firmly believe that presses have helped my shoulders get back to as close to "normal" as possible and has made them stronger than ever.
 

B.Hetzler

Level 3 Valued Member
Will too much pressing cause injury - yes, if your pressing and/or programming is wrong.

How do you know what type of acromion you have to determine whether you should press or not?  Barring an x-ray you don't know.  Regardless, it doesn't matter a whole lot bc even people with type II or II Acromion can press without pain. 

Bottom line, if you are symmetrical (from a movement standpoint) and have good technique you can almost do whatever you want.  When overuse injuries from training occur it is my opinion they are more related to poor training programming than anything else.
 

Andrew Palmer

Level 5 Valued Member
I like Andrew Read's stuff a lot, but unless it can be proven that everybody with the maligned AC joints inevitably ends up with injuries caused by overhead pressing, then I wouldn't read too much into it. Its like saying if you run, then at some stage you will experience an injury. As mentioned, poor technique or programming is what's more likely to cause an injury.

However, those people who have genuine structural concerns, and who have attempted overhead pressing and have experienced pain, need to listen to their body and find alternatives. Training horizontal presses, along with movements that promote overhead mobility, is a valid approach to training.

I find it interesting that snatches and jerks don't necessarily hurt, as the movement speeds through with tension only created at the start and end of the movement, thus eliminating the grinding part. Maybe it's line of force , as in its nearly vertical, without requiring the elbows to flare. I'm wondering if a girevoy sport type of front press would be tolerable for those who experienced pain with overhead presses that required an outward arc.
 

kris

Level 3 Valued Member
@ Jeffrey : I don't have spare time to read this " author ", so answered to your post. All overhead exercises can lead to AC injury for all sorts of reasons. Now, statistics clearly demonstrate that most of the AC injuries are caused by contact or throwing sports. For a clear understanding of injuries and sports injuries, it is better to refer to sciences based articles. Too many people are not staying within the scope of their practic,  Mr Andrew Read is a DD kettlebells instructor.

@ Steeve Friedes : we all know what you mean !

 
 

Jason Ginsberg

Level 4 Valued Member
Jeffrey, what's the purpose of this post besides trying to stir up controversy? Pavel has advocated overhead pressing since PttP and the original RKC book, and has made it a staple of ETK, and the RKC 1 and 2, and now SFG 1 and 2 curriculums.  He clearly doesn't think 2/3 of the population shouldn't be pressing.  Andrew is now a Master RKC; if he wants, he is in a position to try and change the curriculum; the level 2 press standards for RKC 2 have already been significantly lowered.

Meanwhile, SFG continues to teach overhead pressing with barbells and kettlebells, and it continues to be advocated by Mark Rippetoe (who argues that it helps prevent damage from bench pressing), Jim Wendler, Dan John, and many others.

I've been pressing weights overhead for over half a dozen years, and doing headstand pushups since before then, and teaching people to do all those things as well, and I have not had a single injury, nor has anyone I've taught. I have also been treating shoulder injuries for over 10 years, and disagree with Andrew's conclusions, as do the vast majority of health care practitioners I know who have experience in proper overhead lifting, and success in treatment of upper limb disorders.

It's a shame, because the complex is actually quite interesting and probably has a lot of value; a good discussion of it would be great, and will probably get lost in the hype. There are a lot of other issues implied in the article, including the role of swimming in shoulder issues. Andrew wrote a book about how to train for the beast tamer challenge, and attempted it himself, before he switched focus to more endurance-based events, and he's been an RKC for a while, and brought the RKC to Australia; he's done a lot of overhead pressing, and taught it to a lot of people as well.

 
 

Quicksilver02181987

Level 1 Valued Member
Maybe those people he says aren't built for overhead pressing are actually the minority and the majority have shoulders that are built for pressing.
 

kris

Level 3 Valued Member
@  Quick Silver : people are not built or not built for pressing overhead , but there a lot of very bad trainers and kettlebells instructors in Australia. There is NO regulations in fitness in this country, everybody can work in this industry without any basics knowledges. This is right, there is a LOT of shoulders injuries in Australia, a lot.
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Top Bottom