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Old Forum Andrew Read says most people shouldn't press.

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Samuel

Level 2 Valued Member
There are definitely different acromion types, and the Type III acromion does increase risk of AC impingement. He is not wrong in that regard, and there are other guys who have spoken about this a bit (Eric Cressey and Mike Robertson come to mind - I'm sure there are plenty more).

However...

I don't believe there is clear evidence of the prevalence of the different types overall. I did a quick search and found this paper:
http://www.jshoulderelbow.org/article/S1058-2746%2801%2990918-8/abstract
"Only 4 (2%) of 200 shoulders were found to have a type III acromion by use of the standard subjective Bigliani classification. Eight (4%) acromion were found to be type III by the use of previously published objective criteria for acromial measurement. Our results show the type III acromion to be relatively rare in asymptomatic, young athletes, but the incidence of type III acromion in a general population of both young and older individuals is still not completely understood."

I don't have the time right now to do a more thorough search, but I would caution unfounded generalisations and leaping to conclusions. Think about all the potential structural or genetic differences that exist for predisposing people to certain things. Are we all going to live our lives assuming we have the 'worst' of everything and the highest risk of all problems? Of course not.

I, for one, will keep pressing until I have a real reason not to.
 

Bill Been

Level 6 Valued Member
This article will cause a brief stir, then lots of people will notice that 2/3 of the people they know that press are NOT suffering injury from it. They might even begin to suspect that distance swimming is about a billion times more likely to hurt your shoulders than a couple dozen presses. They may even go so far as to suspect that God didn't design us to fly apart at the least provocation and we should all just settle down and take all the "that will surely hurt you" blather with a healthy dose of skepticism. There's also a REAAALLLY good chance Rob Lawrence's initial assessment of the situation is correct.

.
 

kris

Level 3 Valued Member
I finally read this article. The very first mistake is " the bench press ", if you are lying on your back, it is not anymore an overhead exercices, the introduction with the 3 phases made me laugh. This article is a mix of everything without any link.
 

Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
IMO, a lot of the scary conclusions in the article about pressing are silly and unwarranted for a lot of reasons already stated in this thread.

However, the insight that if your shoulders are already jacked up and/or pressing tends to jack them up, then ballistic overhead lifts may be a useful workaround, is potentially pretty valuable.
 

Rickard

Level 4 Valued Member
Reading both the article and commentary from Read I got the impression that he meant that some people shouldn't be doing barbell overhead presses and handstanding pushups, all other form of presses is ok. I think this is the same idea that pullups on rings where the hands are free to move is better for shoulders. But I don't know, don't have problems with shoulders. Upperback can be a bit dodgy but working on that with a physical therapist.

 

Congrats to Mr Read on making master rkc too! Hope he is reading this!

 
 

Roper

Level 5 Valued Member
The " insight " that if pressing hurts your shoulders then you shouldn't press as much...

hardly seems worthy of the term " insight "

 

As for " Hope he is reading this "

 

Well

 

" It's getting some interesting discussion at the StrongFirst form where people are upset because I have challenged their dogma " Andrew Read

 

I'm sure he is...

 

 
 

kris

Level 3 Valued Member
Hope he is reading this also :

- I was introduced to Andrew Read in August 2010 in Melbourne by Master Shaun Cairns. I would like to learn how to train properly with kettlebells and after a look on Internet, I discover Pavel, DD and the one day course HKC run by Master Shaun Cairns in Brisbane. I rand a mobile number and asked how to pay, and was answered.

- At the end of this course, I was not prepared at all, I failed and asked Master Shaun Cairns how to perfect my technique and he answered that somebody in Melbourne was able to teach me, Andrew Read.

- I began to have oneweek from time to time. Kettlebells are quite knew in Australia, DD and Andrew Read unknown. We used to talk and one day, I asked Andrew why he was kettlebells instructors. And this is his answer :

- " because I was looking the best way to rehabilitate my shoulder after an injury when I was grappler and that's work very well, now I am the first RKC II " in Australia.

- same as Steeve Friedes, I have a lot of this kinda " funny " things in my memory ...
 

Jeff

Level 6 Valued Member
It is a shame that someone can't ask a question or have a discussion without stirring up an "us versus them" controversy.
 

Steve W.

Level 7 Valued Member
Steve W. wrote:
However, the insight that if your shoulders are already jacked up and/or pressing tends to jack them up, then ballistic overhead lifts may be a useful workaround, is potentially pretty valuable.
Roper wrote:
The ” insight ” that if pressing hurts your shoulders then you shouldn’t press as much… hardly seems worthy of the term ” insight ”
Roper, if your comment is referring to mine, that isn't at all what I wrote or meant (and I'm not defending the article in general). Normally, the reaction to "my should is jacked up" or "pressing hurts my shoulders" is either, "Screw it, I'm going to keep pressing anyway," "I'm going to limit myself to getups," or "I"m going to avoid lifting overhead completely." The article offers an additional option that I hadn't thought of in that way before, but is consistent with my experience.

Upon reflection, however, the application of overhead ballistic lifts is more limited in scope than the article suggests. If your shoulders get jacked up from pressing because of a technique issue, a mobility issue, or a programming issue (too much volume, frequency or load, or too little recovery), then switching to a ballistic exercise may not help or even be counterproductive.

There is also the matter of someone having a serious shoulder injury where they REALLY shouldn't be lifting at all -- then having them do a complex of ballistic exercises is obviously bad news.
 

Samuel

Level 2 Valued Member
Agreed, Jeffrey. In full disclosure, I knew and was reasonably close to Andrew but we had a personal altercation and a falling out where I went from occasionally helping run group classes to being kicked permanently out of his facility. Shortly afterwards was the SFG/RKC split, and I chose to follow Pavel to StrongFirst while Andrew stayed with DD. Despite all this, if you look back at my post, I think it's fair to say that I addressed his points critically, fairly, and without bias. At the very least I tried my best to.

Would that we could all do the same.

It is one of the reasons why I respect Pavel so much. Quiet professionalism.
 

Jeff

Level 6 Valued Member
Samuel,

I didn't mean you at all. It is entirely possible for people to disagree on a point and actually keep a discussion respectful and about the point rather than taking personal jabs at "the other side". As soon as I see people begin to draw up sides and make personal comments it causes me to believe that there are agendas other than coming to a better understanding of the topic of conversation.

 
 

Roper

Level 5 Valued Member
It is entirely possible for people to disagree on a point and actually keep a discussion respectful and about the point rather than taking personal jabs
 

Couldn't agree more Jeffrey, couldn't agree more...
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
Jeffrey, you asked for opinions on a statement made in an article on a web site that has no connection to StrongFirst, written by someone with no connection to StrongFirst.

I have plenty to talk about without worrying about what other people think about pressing.   I think it's a fantastic movement.  If you asked me to pick a single program that I had to live with for the rest of my life, and could only use a kettlebell, my program would include the standing, one-armed kettlebell military press - and the windmill, and the swing, and that would be it.  I have, in fact, trained for extended periods of time that way.

I must apologize for responding to your original post.  My code of conduct says that we don't say anyone else is wrong, only that we know we are right.  I stand by that code, and know that I am right in how we teach pressing.  Whether or not what is said in the article you cite is correct is not my concern, and it needn't be yours, either.  Take our Kettlebell User Course or come to the SFG Level I instructor certification and, provided you are medically cleared to do so, we will teach you how to press in a way that is not only safe for your shoulders, it will be better for your shoulder than not pressing at all.

In Strength.

Steve Freides, StrongFirst Team Leader
 

kris

Level 3 Valued Member
Agree with Steeve, there is no point to refer to a forum or leader without any connection with StrongFirst, the motto  of this leader is " Stronglast ", so better to totally ignore.
 

Jeff

Level 6 Valued Member
There are multiple threads at any given time, including right now, asking about programs outside of SF.
 

kris

Level 3 Valued Member
@ Jeffrey : you clearly asked Andrew read is right or not in " pressing lead to injuries for 2/3 of population ", it is not a " program " but a sport injury question written by somebody not qualifIed in sports injuries prevention.

@ Samuel, I don't think that Pavel is " quiet ", anyway he wrote that this forum is " open ", this is supposed we are free to express our opinions, as long as our motto is StrongFirst.
 

Mattsirpeace

Level 4 Valued Member
Chill out, dudes!

Jeffrey asked an honest question.  This isn't the Civil War.  On a recent thread I sorta-disagreed with Steve Freides, Brett Jones, Pavel, Russell, and Dr. McGill.  It's OK!

I gained a tidbit of knowledge from this thread -- shoulder anatomy issues are real but uncommon.  Andrew Read committed a logical fallacy.  Just because there are three descriptions of a particular bodypart doesn't mean that only one-third of people are OK for such-and-such movement.  If he is a "master", and makes that mistake, that indicates the standards of the organization that gave him that designation.

P.S.  Bill Been -- you're even grouchier than me.  We could be like the old guys on The Muppet Show.  So tired of wasted effort.
 
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