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Chrisdavisjr

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I found this video while looking for deadlifting advice and was interested to note that Andy Bolton advocates pulling with a vertical shin, with the shins touching the bar.

When I first started deadlifting, this is pretty much how I was doing it and I would find that my lifts were mediocre at best and that my lower back would 'light up' for days afterwards: In short, it never felt good.

Once I started lifting with my hips a bit closer to the ground, my weights went up and the lift felt better. Now I find myself wondering, am I cheating myself out of a stronger deadlift in the long run by going for what feels easier rather than what is mechanically 'correct', or is the notion of a 'correct' deadlift nonsense?

I'm definitely not built like Andy Bolton, that's for sure.
 
The exact stance and positioning is individual. We have different bodies. There are trendlines, of course. Some people in the gym have their knees way out over the bar. That's a no-no. But just slightly? Perfectly fine.

Have a video recorded from the side and see how the bar moves. Ideally, it should move just vertically. With a weight heavy enough, it won't move much but vertically.
 
I found this video while looking for deadlifting advice and was interested to note that Andy Bolton advocates pulling with a vertical shin, with the shins touching the bar.

Bolton Conventional Deadlift Video

This is an excellent Deadlift tutorial for the Conventional Deadlifter. The Sumo is completely different.

Let's break down Bolton's analysis.

1) Dragging The Bar Up The Shins

a) This ensure you keep the bar close to your body's COG (Center of Gravity); it decreases Torque.

The farther the bar is from you COG, the more it magnifies the true bar weight.

Research by Dr Tom McLaughlin on an 800 Deadlift (circa 1980) by Jon Kuc/242 lb body weight, found that the bar drifted out in front. McLaughlin found doing so magnified the bar weight to around 1600 lbs; Kuc needed to produce 1600 lbs of force to complete the lift, which he didn't.

b) Dragging the bar up the shins increases stability. It is somewhat like performing a lift in Smith Machine; the bar glides up.

2) Bending Your Arms On The Pull

Most know not to do this.

3) Head Position: The head needs to be looking ahead and downward; the eyes focused at the floor about 8 - 10 feet in front of you.

As you pull the weight up, the head should drop down...



Neck Packing keeps you from hyperextending your back in a Deadlift, Kettlebell Swing, Back/Hip Extension, etc.

Most good and great Deadlifters, unknowingly Neck Pack.

4) High Hip Position: The Deadlift involves a Quarter Squat position. That because you can Quarter Squat more than you can Half Squat.

Great Deadlift Auxiliary Exercises are: High Bar Quarter Squats in a Rack, Quarter Step Up Squats, Leg Press, etc.

5) Back Drive Off The Floor

Bolton state you want to use the back and leg to drive the weight off the floor.

With that said, the lower back initiates the drive off the floor, with the legs assisting. The movement occurs so quickly with the back and legs, that it hard is to really see with the naked eye. It's...

The Bam-Bam Effect

In American Football, any sport, something occurs so quickly that it's hard to detect. That is one of the reason that Football used "Instant Replay".

The Olympic Lifting Deadlift

As Bolton's interview noted, he was preforming an Olympic Lifting Deadlift; driving the legs into the floor, essentially Leg Pressing the weight off the ground. A flat back was maintained.

The purpose of the Olympic Lifting Deadlift (First Pull) is to correctly position the bar for the Second Pull.

The Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift

The Conventional Powerlifting Deadlift employs the back to break the weight off the floor with some assistance from the legs.

Some upper back rounding usually occurs. Doing so, enables the lifter to pull the bar back in on top of them, minimizing Torque; ensuring the bar is as close to the body's Center of Gravity as possible.

When I first started deadlifting, this is pretty much how I was doing it and I would find that my lifts were mediocre at best and that my lower back would 'light up' for days afterwards: In short, it never felt good.

Lighting Up Your Back With the Conventional Deadlift

That is true of most Conventional Deadlifts. It is one of the reason most individual's Deadlift once every 7 - 10 days.

As McLaughlin stated in his Deadlift research, the lower back is quickly and easily overtrained.

Heavy Deadlift Training would "light my back up for days, as well.

With that said, I opted out of Deadlifting. In doing so, my Deadlift dramatically increased.

Two effective "Deadlift Auxiliary Exercise" that I found and use are...

1) Good Morning

2) 45 Degree and 90 Degree Back/Hip Extensions

I found that both of these exercise developed back strength with out "lighting my back up" and allowed me to recover faster.

Deadlift Technique

As I have noted in other post, using any of the Powerlifts as a training exercise is counter productive. With each repetition, the muscle become more fatigued; meaning your technique is altered with each repetition as well as you your muscle fiber's firing sequence.

Technique is developed with loads of 85% plus of 1 Repetition Max, with single or double repetitions.

Increasing Deadlift Strength

Auxiliary Exercises that are similar in nature to the Deadlift allow you to increase strength without affecting your Deadlift Technique.

Once I started lifting with my hips a bit closer to the ground, my weights went up and the lift felt better. Now I find myself wondering, am I cheating myself out of a stronger deadlift in the long run by going for what feels easier rather than what is mechanically 'correct', or is the notion of a 'correct' deadlift nonsense?

Hips Lower

This means you may be using more leg drive to break the weight off the floor; your performing something closer to a Half Squat rather than a Quarter Squat.

To reiterate, you can Quarter Squat more than you can Half Squat.

Based on what you've posted, it appears your legs are stronger than you back. If so, the Sumo Deadlift is something you should consider. The legs drive the weight off the floor with some assistance form the back.

Sumo Deadlift Firing Sequence: Legs > Back

Conventional Deadlift Firing Sequence: Back > Legs > Back

Take Home Message

Play to your strength.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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it should move just vertically.

Not Quite Vertical

One of the primary keys to Deadlifting more weight is to keep the bar as close to your COG, Center of Gravity , as possible.

To do this you need to pull the bar back on top of you, not vertically straight up.

Secondly, the Deadlift is a "Pulling Movement". The posterior chain's job is to pull back.

Third, the contact of the bar against you legs is somewhat like having it on guide rods in a Smith Machine.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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I deadlift twice a week. That is, one session is a regular deadlift and one session is a close variation. Sometimes it is a deficit deadlift or a rack pull, but my absolute favorite and really the one I found most helpful is the paused deadlift. You start the lift as usual, but once the bar is off the floor, you pause for a one-two count. So it rests somewhere midshin while you focus to maintain your back alligned and your legs still partially bent. Then you complete the rest of the lockout.

I like it so much because it showcases many errors I make. For example, I noticed how little I pull the bar back with my lats. I noticed that I tend to extend my hips too soon and it really drilled my spine extension. You cannot slack on your deadlift if you need to hold it mid-air. You have to be on point with yout mid-foot alignment or that moment arm will punish you hard.

This variation mimics the main lift almost entirely, but because of the pause you end up using a much lighter weight and so it doesn't tax me as much as a regular one. So I can get away with training the deadlift twice a week and still recover well.
 
@kennycro@@aol.com Thanks for the reply!

I think sumo might be the way forward for me. What I'm wondering now is how to program my deadlift training as it's beginning to seem that the 4-5 days/week 10 reps or less approach outlined in Power to the People! might be excessive, at least once the intensity reaches a certain level.

Maybe I'll give the Vodka and Pickles program a try as I feel I could greatly benefit from increasingly the volume at lighter weights and significantly decreasing the volume once things get heavy.
 
I think sumo might be the way forward for me.

Meaning

I am not sure what you mean by it being "way to forward."

Another alternative is the...

Tip: Do the Squat-Stance Deadlift | T Nation

I believe StrongFirst refers to it as the Squat-Sumo.

What I'm wondering now is how to program my deadlift training as it's beginning to seem that the 4-5 days/week 10 reps or less approach outlined in Power to the People! might be excessive, at least once the intensity reaches a certain level.

"4-5 days/week 10 reps or less approach"

That is a lot of work for the lower back. The lower back, as McLaughlin stated, is quickly and easily overtrained.

That is the reason why Powerlifters usually only train it once ever 7 - 10 days.

What most individual fail to realize if they are squatting during the week, the lower back is heavily engaged and being work.

"When The Back Says NO and The Legs Say GO."

Hollie Evette, a national Powerlifer and coach, wrote a great article on the Squat, years ago.

As Hollie noted, the limiting factor in the Squat is the lower back. The legs are a much larger and stronger muscle group; able to recovery faster than the lower back.

The lower back is a smaller muscle group that is quickly exhausted and easily over trained.

Thus, the lower back is overloaded long before the legs are completely work.

The Take Home Message

Let's say a Powerlifter is training the Deadlift and Squat heavy once a week. That means you beating the crap out of your lower back twice a week.

Add to that, the lower back is involved in standing exercises: Pressing, Curls, etc.

The accumulative effect adds up on the lower back.

Moderate to High Rep Deadlifts

From my personal experience and in working with other, the lower back doesn't respond well to moderate to high repetition Deadlifts.

might be excessive, at least once the intensity reaches a certain level.

The Finnish Deadlift Training Program

This Deadlift Training Program came out in the 1980's. It was a brutal 3 day a week, high volume, high intensity Deadlift Training Program. It worked for a few. However, most lifter found the lower back couldn't handle the volume nor intensity.

Volume:Intensity

There is an inverse relationship between Volume and Intensity.

It is a See Saw Effect; when one goes up the other goes down.

When Volume goes up, Load/Intensity goes down.

When Load/Intensity goes up, Volume goes down.

It's like Vince Gironda (good bodybuilder, great coach) said...

"You can train hard or long but not both."

Summary

1) The lower back is quickly and easily overtrained.

2) The low back responds better to low repetition and low volume training.

3) In writing a low back training program, you need to take into account the amount of work, load and volume the low back is subjected to with Squats and Standing Exercises.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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the paused deadlift.

The Haulting Deadlift


This exercise has it place in training; a partial movement that is effective at developing strength in the bottom part of the deadlift.

Strong swing, weak deadlift - how to bridge the gap?


I recommended it to Anna, in the post above for increasing her power and strength.

She found it worked, "Yesterday I pulled 300x5 (a long time goal!) and it moved so much faster off the floor."

This variation mimics the main lift almost entirely, but because of the pause you end up using a much lighter weight and so it doesn't tax me as much as a regular one. So I can get away with training the deadlift twice a week and still recover well.

Active Recovery

Performing some lower back exercise with a lighter load is a form of "Active Recovery"; increased blood flow to the muscles. The circulatory system delivers nutrients to the muscles and takes out the garbage, metabolic waste; prompts faster recovery.

You twice a week Deadlift Program is an effective method.

Kenny Croxdale
 
The Haulting Deadlift


This exercise has it place in training; a partial movement that is effective at developing strength in the bottom part of the deadlift.

That's not what I am doing. I do the full deadlift with a pause at around midshin. Paused deadlift. I find it useful for more reasons than just active recovery - it improves my technique. It teaches me where I make errors in my regular deadlift since the range of motion is identical. The pause keeps me honest - if anything gets out of alignment after the setup, that pause will highlight it in all its shame.


 
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I've done both the paused and the halting. I think the halting helped me more with my weakness off the floor. More reps of concentrated work on that particular weakness without the stress of the full lift.
 
Interesting. I've never tried the halting deadlift. I've never even heard or thought of it. I'll keep that in the back of my mind for future
 
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