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Other/Mixed Another Barbell/Kettlebell Mixing question

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
Hello All,

I have seen quite a few threads on this, but my question is a bit specific so while I got some ideas, I just wanted to clarify a few things. I am almost done with a cycle of 5/3/1 using OHP, deadlift, bench press, and back squats, and have been trying to bulk this cycle so all my focus was on the big lifts and lot of accessory work pushing to near failure with cluster sets. I have seen great progress, and now I am ready to train a power block, but I'm not ready to put down the barbell just yet.

Wendler says in the FAQ that kettlebells are a good accessory to 5/3/1, and Pavel says in Q&D that it can be inserted in an existing strength program, so my idea is to combine the two. The questions then become, how many days a week of each? 5/3/1 is normally 4 days a week, one lift each day, with accessory lifts added as desired. I am proficient in swings and pushups, but not snatches, so for now I would like to add Q&D style swings and pushups, but I'm confused on how to organize it.

Reading through this thread and looking at all the article Geoff posted (Kettlebell - Combing Kettlebells with Barbells?) it looks like these power type moves can be sandwiched around the barbell or done in blocks, but since Pavel writes that Q&D should be done in a 12 week block at first to get the most benefits, I'd likely keep a little of it the whole cycle instead of going back and forth in blocks.

Would you do Q&D on press days or leg days? Or would you split the barbell movements into pairs sand work them two days a week, then do only Q&D the other two days so they are never done on the same days? Q&D is a power program and is the main focus, so should it be done before the barbell lifts? If so, would you keep the weight lighter on barbell lifts since I'd already be a bit fatigued?

My main goal is to work on power and endurance, and in Geoff's article he mentions adding swings AFTER barbell work to work on endurance. II would like to maintain my strength in the big lifts and I really enjoy doing them, so I don't want to take 12 weeks off them completely, but doing just the base 5/3/1 sets it's only 10-15 reps so I don't think doing enough to just maintain would be overly taxing.

Thoughts? Sorry for the long thread.
 

william bad butt

Level 6 Valued Member
Personally, I like adding 1 or 2 days per week of the DFW (dry fighting weight) program to my barbell program. I'm pretty sure this is also a Geoff program. Instead of doing it 3 days/week as Geoff prescribes, I treat it as an accessory to my barbell lifting and do it less frequently. I still make progress.

Eric
 

Coyotl

Level 6 Valued Member
@BJJ Shawn -

Train power -> strength -> conditioning ... so you could use Q&D for power development, then do 5/3/1, or you could do 5/3/1 and then the KB for conditioning (endurance?). (I don't think I would want to put all three in a single day.) Personally, I think you could train Q&D on alternate days, e.g. Q&D on Monday and Thursday, Deadlift & Bench on Tuesday, Squat and Press on Friday. I haven't done Q&D, so I can't really speak to using Q&D.

What Wendler is saying is using them in a circuit after the main work for conditioning. I think he's gives a couple examples with them in circuits in Beyond 5/3/1.

Training for power and endurance at the same time ... I'm not sure I would combine Q&D + 5/3/1 + more kettlebell work. You could easily add in a "power development" swings (maybe 5-10 sets of 5 OT30s) before squatting or deadlifting, and then after lifting do a complex. You could do the same with a push-up before benching or pressing. This is NOT Q&D, but a day could look like:

Power (two-hand) Swings x5 OT30s x 5​
- these could also be done as low as sets of 3, especially if you add a band or have access to heavy kettlebells​
Deadlift 65-75-85​
Circuit (max rounds in 20 min):​
1HSw x 10-15​
Pushup x10​
Inverted row x5-10​
Bear crawl x 10 m forward + 10m backward​
- Rest enough to ensure all reps are powerful​

Again, this is definitely NOT Q&D. I have done Power + Strength and Strength + Circuits in a session, but I haven't done Power + Strength + Circuits in a session except when power training was jumps (box jumps, lateral jumps, hurdle hops, etc.) or very short (10s) sprints (which would also work very well - repeats of 10s sprint with a 50s rest interval done before your lift). There are TONS of iterations of possibilities.

I am currently training both kettlebells and barbells but I'm not really focusing on power.
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
@BJJ Shawn -

Train power -> strength -> conditioning ... so you could use Q&D for power development, then do 5/3/1, or you could do 5/3/1 and then the KB for conditioning (endurance?). (I don't think I would want to put all three in a single day.) Personally, I think you could train Q&D on alternate days, e.g. Q&D on Monday and Thursday, Deadlift & Bench on Tuesday, Squat and Press on Friday. I haven't done Q&D, so I can't really speak to using Q&D.

What Wendler is saying is using them in a circuit after the main work for conditioning. I think he's gives a couple examples with them in circuits in Beyond 5/3/1.

Training for power and endurance at the same time ... I'm not sure I would combine Q&D + 5/3/1 + more kettlebell work. You could easily add in a "power development" swings (maybe 5-10 sets of 5 OT30s) before squatting or deadlifting, and then after lifting do a complex. You could do the same with a push-up before benching or pressing. This is NOT Q&D, but a day could look like:

Power (two-hand) Swings x5 OT30s x 5​
- these could also be done as low as sets of 3, especially if you add a band or have access to heavy kettlebells​
Deadlift 65-75-85​
Circuit (max rounds in 20 min):​
1HSw x 10-15​
Pushup x10​
Inverted row x5-10​
Bear crawl x 10 m forward + 10m backward​
- Rest enough to ensure all reps are powerful​

Again, this is definitely NOT Q&D. I have done Power + Strength and Strength + Circuits in a session, but I haven't done Power + Strength + Circuits in a session except when power training was jumps (box jumps, lateral jumps, hurdle hops, etc.) or very short (10s) sprints (which would also work very well - repeats of 10s sprint with a 50s rest interval done before your lift). There are TONS of iterations of possibilities.

I am currently training both kettlebells and barbells but I'm not really focusing on power.
Thank you. I probably didn't spell it out very well, but I'm definitely not looking to train Q&D + 5/3/1 + more kettlebell work, I just meant the kettlebell work from Q&D. So my day could look like:

Q&D for 20 minutes + 5/3/1 (lift of the day)
or
5/3/1 (lift of the day) + Q&D for 20 minutes
or
5/3/1 x 2 lifts one day and Q&D next day for 30-45 minutes

I think your answer is basically option 1 or 3 in these examples would be best. I might try both and see which one allows for better recovery, but hoping someone that has done something similar can help steer me down the better path so I don't waste too much effort and spin my wheels.
 
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Coyotl

Level 6 Valued Member
5/3/1 x 2 lifts one day and Q&D next day for 30-45 minutes
I would flip the days. Q&D Day 1, 5/3/1 Day 2, then take Day 3 off. That way power isn't effected by fatigue from lifting.

I might try both and see which one allows for better recovery, but hoping someone that has done something similar can help steer me down the better path so I don't waste too much effort and spin my wheels.
Good luck!
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
I would keep doing the 531 as it is and first add a single, separate kettlebell session somewhere where it fits best. Keep doing it for some weeks and see how you deal with it all. If necessary and possible, add another separate session later on.
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
I would keep doing the 531 as it is and first add a single, separate kettlebell session somewhere where it fits best. Keep doing it for some weeks and see how you deal with it all. If necessary and possible, add another separate session later on.

Well, with 5/3/1 you are encorouged to change your accessories to match your current goals. I'm not trying to move away from 5/3/1 or to add additional work, just trying to change the accessories to a more power based goal and I think Q&D is a good power based program that I would like to try.

My goal is shifting from hypertrophy (I've added about 15 pounds in 3 months, obviously some fat in there but definitely a good amount of muscle mass) to power as I have added a nice base of strength but I have seen my power and endurance suffer, both of qhich Q&D seems primed to work on. Hence, I don't want to do MORE work, just different accessories.

Have you read this article?

Yes, I have read it several times. I think the idea I have will be very similar, but I don't think I'm experienced enough to focus on singles. That article is one that has made me wonder though if I should do these Q&D sessions before a press day, before a deadlift day, both, or neither...
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
Well, with 5/3/1 you are encorouged to change your accessories to match your current goals. I'm not trying to move away from 5/3/1 or to add additional work, just trying to change the accessories to a more power based goal and I think Q&D is a good power based program that I would like to try.

My goal is shifting from hypertrophy (I've added about 15 pounds in 3 months, obviously some fat in there but definitely a good amount of muscle mass) to power as I have added a nice base of strength but I have seen my power and endurance suffer, both of qhich Q&D seems primed to work on. Hence, I don't want to do MORE work, just different accessories.



Yes, I have read it several times. I think the idea I have will be very similar, but I don't think I'm experienced enough to focus on singles. That article is one that has made me wonder though if I should do these Q&D sessions before a press day, before a deadlift day, both, or neither...

First you mention power, and then later in you even add endurance.

Power and endurance are at odds with each other.

Power should be trained first. I wouldn't program it as an accessory to be done after main strength work.

Endurance training done close to power or strength training could limit the effectiveness of it all. I would keep it separate, even if just during the same day. Like I originally mentioned.

Why are you opposed to adding a bit of extra work?

In the end, power push-ups after pressing or swings or snatches after deadlifts or squats should work well.
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
First you mention power, and then later in you even add endurance.

Power and endurance are at odds with each other.

Power should be trained first. I wouldn't program it as an accessory to be done after main strength work.

Endurance training done close to power or strength training could limit the effectiveness of it all. I would keep it separate, even if just during the same day. Like I originally mentioned.

Why are you opposed to adding a bit of extra work?

In the end, power push-ups after pressing or swings or snatches after deadlifts or squats should work well.
Thanks, maybe I'm misguided on a few things, so this does help. I was under the impression that Q&D is a form of power training, but the timing of which helps build mitochondria which helps with endurance. I don't really intend to try swing my way to running longer, but in my sport being able to use bursts of power for longer is about the most useful thing I could think of. Doing S&S helped me greatly in this aspect, and I THOUGHT that Q&D is kind of designed to focus on this area, but again I could have that wrong.

I am not necessarily opposed to adding work, but my current schedule of 45-55 minutes of training 4 days a week fits my available time just right, and I am recovering just beautifully. I currently wake up at 4:30am to get my work in before work, and I don't think cutting any deeper into my sleep will do me much good as that is already where I am having the hardest time.
 

Pete L

Level 5 Valued Member
Well, with 5/3/1 you are encorouged to change your accessories to match your current goals. I'm not trying to move away from 5/3/1 or to add additional work, just trying to change the accessories to a more power based goal and I think Q&D is a good power based program that I would like to try.

My goal is shifting from hypertrophy (I've added about 15 pounds in 3 months, obviously some fat in there but definitely a good amount of muscle mass) to power as I have added a nice base of strength but I have seen my power and endurance suffer, both of qhich Q&D seems primed to work on. Hence, I don't want to do MORE work, just different accessories.



Yes, I have read it several times. I think the idea I have will be very similar, but I don't think I'm experienced enough to focus on singles. That article is one that has made me wonder though if I should do these Q&D sessions before a press day, before a deadlift day, both, or neither...
The reason I linked it was because the author recommends the power training / Q&D and then the strength. Just as @Antti has advised.

I have dodgy shoulders so I'd probably skip any benching if doing plenty of power pushups but I don't see why you couldn't do some low rep work on squats as an alternative to DL after a low volume Q&D session (as outlined in the article). Same with BP if you fancy it.

Q&D is reported to have hypertrophic benefits so a little low rep strength training to compliment this should help avoid any loss to your recent gains.

I don't agree with your comment / reservation on singles. From my experience singles allow you to practice setting up and performing the pattern. Lifting a heavy weight a few times isn't that different from your Wendler programme from what I can see.
 

Steve A

Level 6 Valued Member
Maybe...stop thinking in terms of programs and especially stop thinking about trying to combine them. Can you do 5/3/1 with the four movements, getting it done in one week? Yes. Can you do it with the upper back work you are supposed to do with it? Yes. OK, that is your skeleton. Now can you add some KB ballistics on some days?

A guy you may have heard of, Pavel Tsatsouline, wrote (sorry, I am too lazy to pull up the exact quote) that "to combine barbell and KB, do each of the four barbell moves 1x/week for 5 x 5, and do some easy KB work after." Is your skeleton really that much different from the barbell work he described? No. So do some KB ballistics with your remaining time on each day.

My one suggestion - don't do any very strenuous ballistics the day before DLs. Maybe not even the day before SQs. If you run your week M-SQ, T-B, Th- Dl, F-P, adding some SW or KB SN would be pretty easy.
 

Antti

Level 9 Valued Member
Thanks, maybe I'm misguided on a few things, so this does help. I was under the impression that Q&D is a form of power training, but the timing of which helps build mitochondria which helps with endurance. I don't really intend to try swing my way to running longer, but in my sport being able to use bursts of power for longer is about the most useful thing I could think of. Doing S&S helped me greatly in this aspect, and I THOUGHT that Q&D is kind of designed to focus on this area, but again I could have that wrong.

I am not necessarily opposed to adding work, but my current schedule of 45-55 minutes of training 4 days a week fits my available time just right, and I am recovering just beautifully. I currently wake up at 4:30am to get my work in before work, and I don't think cutting any deeper into my sleep will do me much good as that is already where I am having the hardest time.

Power is definitely a useful attribute. For most, it is the easiest and most conveniently trained by developing absolute strength.

In other words, build a base to develop your power on. That's why Q&D works best on advanced athletes.

All that said, with a specific sport in mind, perhaps you best develop power in your sport through sport specific practice.

By all means, never skip on your sleep. Your schedule and how you spend time is another discussion altogether.
 

Coach Louie

Level 1 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Maybe consider getting a plan strong cycle for your barbell lifting and doing swings for conditioning.
 

MikeL

Level 5 Valued Member
Use Swings as either a pre-deadlift accessory (power, heavy KB) or, if you prefer the barbell to be your lift for power development, use swings as a finisher. Potentially end all 4 of your sessions with 100-200 swings (depending on your ability/KB weight etc).

Consider perhaps using your 4 days to hit a major lift, then do a set of KB “accessories” every day to make sure you revisit the muscle sufficiently throughout the week to stimulate development. An example might be:

KB push press
Pull Up
HLR
Swing

You could even bin off the push press in favour of push ups.

Do this every session after your major lifts, which will support your previous bulking goals, endurance and offer flexibility/mobility too.
 

Mark Limbaga

Level 8 Valued Member
Elite Certified Instructor
You mentioned power as the accessory goal to 5/3/1 yes?

Why not this approach?

Squat and DL days: Q and D snatch
Bench days: swings
OHP days : push press jerk
 

BJJ Shawn

Level 6 Valued Member
Use Swings as either a pre-deadlift accessory (power, heavy KB) or, if you prefer the barbell to be your lift for power development, use swings as a finisher. Potentially end all 4 of your sessions with 100-200 swings (depending on your ability/KB weight etc).

Consider perhaps using your 4 days to hit a major lift, then do a set of KB “accessories” every day to make sure you revisit the muscle sufficiently throughout the week to stimulate development. An example might be:

KB push press
Pull Up
HLR
Swing

You could even bin off the push press in favour of push ups.

Do this every session after your major lifts, which will support your previous bulking goals, endurance and offer flexibility/mobility too.
You mentioned power as the accessory goal to 5/3/1 yes?

Why not this approach?

Squat and DL days: Q and D snatch
Bench days: swings
OHP days : push press jerk

Thanks guys, these are both great suggestions.
 

Tails

Level 2 Valued Member
I've not done Q&D but I've seen several JW approved programmes that have kB incorporated. If you have forever 531 they are in there. Same as weight vest work.

If you've seen 'beyond' you'll understand them. They can be 2/3/4 day of barbell with kB circuits on separate or the same day. Generally you just keep the supplemental (i.e FSL) at a low or moderate level.
 

Kev

Level 4 Valued Member
Hello All,

I have seen quite a few threads on this, but my question is a bit specific so while I got some ideas, I just wanted to clarify a few things. I am almost done with a cycle of 5/3/1 using OHP, deadlift, bench press, and back squats, and have been trying to bulk this cycle so all my focus was on the big lifts and lot of accessory work pushing to near failure with cluster sets. I have seen great progress, and now I am ready to train a power block, but I'm not ready to put down the barbell just yet.

Wendler says in the FAQ that kettlebells are a good accessory to 5/3/1, and Pavel says in Q&D that it can be inserted in an existing strength program, so my idea is to combine the two. The questions then become, how many days a week of each? 5/3/1 is normally 4 days a week, one lift each day, with accessory lifts added as desired. I am proficient in swings and pushups, but not snatches, so for now I would like to add Q&D style swings and pushups, but I'm confused on how to organize it.

Reading through this thread and looking at all the article Geoff posted (Kettlebell - Combing Kettlebells with Barbells?) it looks like these power type moves can be sandwiched around the barbell or done in blocks, but since Pavel writes that Q&D should be done in a 12 week block at first to get the most benefits, I'd likely keep a little of it the whole cycle instead of going back and forth in blocks.

Would you do Q&D on press days or leg days? Or would you split the barbell movements into pairs sand work them two days a week, then do only Q&D the other two days so they are never done on the same days? Q&D is a power program and is the main focus, so should it be done before the barbell lifts? If so, would you keep the weight lighter on barbell lifts since I'd already be a bit fatigued?

My main goal is to work on power and endurance, and in Geoff's article he mentions adding swings AFTER barbell work to work on endurance. II would like to maintain my strength in the big lifts and I really enjoy doing them, so I don't want to take 12 weeks off them completely, but doing just the base 5/3/1 sets it's only 10-15 reps so I don't think doing enough to just maintain would be overly taxing.

Thoughts? Sorry for the long thread.
When I did Wendler 531 kettlebells where usually a finisher at the end. I’d either do emom c+j or complexes or emom swings or sometimes “Goerners Chain”.
 
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