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Kettlebell Another Crossroads (Barbell or Kettlebell!)

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Wyanokie

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I suppose this is my personal version of "things are going so well, help me screw them up".

About me (copied from another thread): 49 years old, good shape and good mobility. Primary activities are muay Thai, hiking, and kettlebell lifts. Have been working with kettlebells, Indian clubs and mobility routines consistently for the past two years. 4 years ago I had a movement screen and scored a 78%, two months ago had the same movement screen at the same location and scored a 92%, plus I'm stronger now than 4 years ago. Things are looking up!

About my goals: I realize that this is a bit nonspecific, but the best way to describe my goals is that over the course of my life, I want to continue to learn new strength skills, get stronger and maintain or improve mobility, as long as I am still conserving quality of movement and not being injured. IOW I don't want to pursue any endeavors that would trash my body in the long-term for short-term gains. Dan John's quote of "I want to dance with my daughter at her wedding" resonates with me more than the idea of any PR's, etc. I want to carry my own groceries, hike with my grandchildren, and pick myself up off the floor in case of a fall when I'm in my 80's. That being said I don't want to be so conservative that I don't challenge myself and push myself enough to get stronger in different ways, and have fun doing it!

Back in April I was working on a steady progression through Simple and Sinister, got tendonitis in my right knee which knocked TGUs off my list and limited my swings. With the help of a SF coach we put together a different program which I worked on until late May and continued progressing. At that point I went to an olympic lifting gym and worked my way up to being able to reasonable snatch and C and J the 45 lb bar in about 6 weeks. The coaches were complementary about my technique and mobility, and things were looking up, then the tendonitis started to rear its ugly head again 2 weeks ago ?. I went back to PT and upon his recommendation I won't be resuming any strength training until about the 2nd week of August.

Now here's my crossroads: I won't be doing the O lifts right away, I'll have to work back into them slowly down the road. I do have the choice of working towards a basic barbell program (considering Faleev's 5x5) or staying with the kettlebells (possibly ROP or one of @Geoff Neupert 's C and P programs), or doing a hybrid of both KB and BB (which I'm leaning the most towards). I'm so far down the hole with analysis paralysis at this time so I need to impose on the good nature of the group here and ask some questions:

First question: considering my age and goals, is it really ever necessary for me to pick up a barbell again? Part of me feels that the kettlebell and bodyweight exercises offer enough variation and full-body benefit to pursue only them for the rest of my life. I haven't even been on a KB C and P/front squat-based program as of yet (I've practiced the movements but not made them my focus), nor have I been on a KB snatch-based program yet. I've worked with barbells before but NOTHING has ever made me feel as good, strong, and mobile as kettlebell work. Am I screwing up a good thing by switching, or will barbells complement the kettlebell work perfectly and progress me to my goals more quickly?

Second question: besides the benefit of greater overall strength (i.e. you can load more on a barbell than a kettlebell), are there any advantages that a barbell has over a kettlebell?

I think I'm going a bit stir-crazy because I haven't worked out in almost 2 weeks, and haven't been on an actual program in about 2 months. I want to push myself and don't want kettlebells to become a comfort zone, but at the same time I recognize that they take years to master and it's a great path to be on. Agh! I'd really appreciate any help for planning the path ahead!
 
At 45 I've had this conversation with myself many times. I feel & look better when I'm owning a KB & bw than when I'm working BBs. Others may have it the opposite. But don't take someone else's prescription.

As for strength, once my 48kg bell feels too light I'll wory about kbs not making me strong enough. I suspect I'll be okay for any practical, athletic or health reason.

But you do what's right for you. Don't let stir crazy or a new forum or article change the focus of doing what is best for you (not someone else), whatever that is.
 
About my goals: I realize that this is a bit nonspecific, but the best way to describe my goals is that over the course of my life, I want to continue to learn new strength skills, get stronger and maintain or improve mobility, as long as I am still conserving quality of movement and not being injured.
This is the most important thing and your activities should align with that. It is a wise perspective. Well done!

There are pros and cons to all tools, but at the end of the day whatever is sustainable and bears fruit in your life is the right path. That will look different depending on who you are and what you want or need to do.

Personally, I'm biased towards kettlebell training (and venturing into bodyweight), but in all honesty I don't have much experience with barbells. It's not really an either/or situation either. I know plenty of folks that say, do BB DL work along with KB work as well.

As far as aging is concerned, my belief is that your joints will thank you if you don't overload them and keep your dry weight as lean as possible (without obsessing over it). Hypertrophy is great, but you don't want to overdo it. That's not to say that you can't safely use heavier weights as you age, but you do want to be mindful and focused on recovery.

As far as mastery is concerned, you can work towards mastery of anything.
 
Given that you got tendinitis with both KBs and barbells I don't see why you think you should forgo barbell training? An empty olympic barbell weighs 20kg and you can do pretty much all of the KB grinds and have all the benefits a barbell has to offer (fine adjustments, easier to grip and balance).

Is there a reason you think KBs would be safer for you? Do the barbell lifts put more stress on your joints and tendons? It's not like you would be choosing between benching and squatting 100kg and pressing and swinging a 24kg KB.

When I bought my 32kg KB the store had a cheap, crappy 60kg barbell set for 75€ and it would offer me all the potential strength gains a set of KBs up to 32kg would. I think that's more what you should be thinking about if you are worried barbells would be too much for you and that you have to stick to KBs to keep you healthy. Not that KBs would be a bad choice or anything like that.
 
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You don't have to pick up a BB OR a KB ever again.

Thee are a few folks here who reported a major surge in strength when they finally switched to barbell work. Also see Absolute Strength Is the True Master Quality | StrongFirst and take note of the Ellen story.

Bottom line is that you can gain strength faster, and get stronger overall, with BBs. But whether that makes a difference to you outside the gym, nobody else can answer. You can certainly get more hypertrophy benefits from the BB, and unless you are a freak you have no worries about overdoing it.

Now having said all that, my opinion is that the BB Oly lifts are a lot harder on the body, especially those of us at any age of significant tissue change, than the KB ballistics. If you want to do them, that can be enough benefit, but my opinion is that it might make more sense, if you do BB work, to do front squats, military presses, and deadlifts. You can easily add KB swings and snatches and cleans, and by all means do some pullups and pushups.
 
Am I screwing up a good thing by switching, or will barbells complement the kettlebell work perfectly and progress me to my goals more quickly?
They do work nicely together, personally I like barbells for strength and size. Kettlebells are good for swings and snatches. Others prefer kettlebells and have gotten pretty strong just with kettlebells
Second question: besides the benefit of greater overall strength (i.e. you can load more on a barbell than a kettlebell), are there any advantages that a barbell has over a kettlebell?
Barbells are much more stable and loadable. It is also cheaper. For the cost of a “basic” kettlebell set ($500 on the sf store $250 from rouge) you can get probably a 300lb barbell set. Barbells also have the advantage of being simpler to program for and the availability of excellent programs show that.
That said, if you throw in a power rack and bench, which is required for any powerlifting style programming, your costs over double. Also keep in mind that kettlebells don’t take up much space so you can keep them handy which improves consistency.
 
I use both. I think they are both amazing. Your optimum health plan might be perfecting one of the big barbell lifts like deadlift or clean and just do that one lift a couple times a week to build that base strength. Then use kettlebells for everything else... any of the good clean and press programs would do you well and should not aggravate your knee.

Otherwise, if it is an either or situation I'd lean towards Kettlebells. Perhaps substituting some type of carry, sled pushes or sandbag work for any traditional lifts that cause your knee problem.
 
Don't worry about your age.

The main thing is that you move, and enjoy it.

Tools are just tools. I love the feel of a heavy load so the barbell is my choice. I also think load is the most important training variable for strength, so that's where the barbell wins again for me. But it's not that important if you're not competitive.

I see no reason to choose. If I want to do a pull-up, I'll do it. Swing a kettlebell, great. Do the bench press, sure. Why choose if you don't have to?
 
I'm 45, and I've come to the conclusion that I feel best when using all the tools. I like the analogy of filling a jar with rocks of various size. You put the big rocks in first, then put in the smaller stuff to fill the gaps.

So, I vote for using the BB to build/maintain max strength - even if you aren't constantly chasing PRs - and fill in the gaps with KB and BW work. And in the end, you're solid.

Obviously, I'm no minimalist.
 
I'm 45, and I've come to the conclusion that I feel best when using all the tools. I like the analogy of filling a jar with rocks of various size. You put the big rocks in first, then put in the smaller stuff to fill the gaps.

So, I vote for using the BB to build/maintain max strength - even if you aren't constantly chasing PRs - and fill in the gaps with KB and BW work. And in the end, you're solid.

Obviously, I'm no minimalist.

Thanks for the great advice everyone.

@WhatWouldHulkDo , I really like the analogy of the jar of rocks, and I believe I will take the advice from your vote.
 
@Wyanokie - I think you might've answered your own question here -
I've worked with barbells before but NOTHING has ever made me feel as good, strong, and mobile as kettlebell work.
You may want to take a look at this post -

At the end of the day, only you can decide for yourself.
 
51 year old competing weightlifter here.

My personal experiences if you want to keep playing with the O-lifts and mix in kettlebells:

1. Geoff's ^^^^ various C&P programs (Giant, Dry Fighting Weight) are pretty good GPP for Olympic lifting, and I use them as such in the off season.

They're better than S&S for sport-specificity of weightlifting.

2. If you're new to a barbell and want to pursue Olympic lifting, I actually would *not* recommend a typical 5x5 barbell program because some of the power lifts don't translate particularly well to Olympic lifting due to differences in positional strength.

A clean pull isn't a deadlift and a front squat isn't a low bar back squat.

3. Barbell in middle age can be an unforgiving bitch.

One of the reasons I use double kettlebells in the off-season for about 6 months a year is that I need that time to recover from the toll that the barbell takes on my body.

Unless you have a real passion for barbell strength sports, I don't think it's something you need to do, for fitness reasons, after you've become a man 'of a certain age'.
 
3. Barbell in middle age can be an unforgiving bitch.
To be fair, I suspect a big part of this is because of this:
51 year old competing weightlifter here.
I believe that competing in anything - be it weightlifting, running, checkers, whatever - is very good for mental health. But, as we all know, it's not always the best thing for the body.
 
To be fair, I suspect a big part of this is because of this:

I believe that competing in anything - be it weightlifting, running, checkers, whatever - is very good for mental health. But, as we all know, it's not always the best thing for the body.

Well, yes.

But I'd also say that, generally, the barbell is unforgiving (Pavel has also said so) .... it's just more unforgiving when pushing competition limits.
 
But I'd also say that, generally, the barbell is unforgiving (Pavel has also said so) .... it's just more unforgiving when pushing competition limits.
How so, do you think?

Like, is pressing a barbell loaded with 64kg less forgiving than pressing a pair of 32kb KBs? I could see arguments both ways... the KBs might allow you to take a more "natural" path to getting over your head, but I would think the barbell is inherently more stable as its 1 piece.

Is there some reading on this? I guess I haven't heard that before.
 
First question: considering my age and goals, is it really ever necessary for me to pick up a barbell again? Part of me feels that the kettlebell and bodyweight exercises offer enough variation and full-body benefit to pursue only them for the rest of my life. I haven't even been on a KB C and P/front squat-based program as of yet (I've practiced the movements but not made them my focus), nor have I been on a KB snatch-based program yet. I've worked with barbells before but NOTHING has ever made me feel as good, strong, and mobile as kettlebell work. Am I screwing up a good thing by switching, or will barbells complement the kettlebell work perfectly and progress me to my goals more quickly?

Second question: besides the benefit of greater overall strength (i.e. you can load more on a barbell than a kettlebell), are there any advantages that a barbell has over a kettlebell?

Great inputs above from all. I especially agree with @solarbear @Antti @WhatWouldHulkDo

I think you can meet your needs with kettlebells if you choose to. Personally I would add a barbell deadlift, but that's about the only thing you would "need" IMO.

Barbell is a different tool and Oly Lifting has different programming qualities. I'm loving it myself. I don't feel that it's particularly harder on the body than kettlebell work, myself, but it IS easier to screw up the programming and I suspect that's where most people go wrong. It's important to have a great coach!
 
How so, do you think?

Like, is pressing a barbell loaded with 64kg less forgiving than pressing a pair of 32kb KBs? I could see arguments both ways... the KBs might allow you to take a more "natural" path to getting over your head, but I would think the barbell is inherently more stable as its 1 piece.

Is there some reading on this? I guess I haven't heard that before.

Yes, exactly that.

Also if there are mobility or injuries issues -- unilateral implements can find angles that aren't as aggravating or don't reinforce an imbalance.

I know, for me, I have to do work unilateral pressing work, mixed in with barbell work, to offset my natural right side dominance.

If I don't, I end up being able to have a stronger lock out on right side elbow than my left, for example.

Which can result in "no lift".

As well as mobility imbalances that in the shoulder girdle that can lead to semi-chronic pain due to muscle guarding, trigger points, etc.

I don't know of any reading on the topic, but I've heard both Pavel and Geoff Neupert make statements about kettlebells being more "forgiving" than barbells on a few podcasts / videos.
 
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Wyanokie, it sounds like you've had a stretch of bad outcomes with tendonitis. Is there something behind that this that is somewhat independent of what tool is being used that could be addressed, opening things up more for you?
 
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You must not have missed heavy snatch yet and had a bad bail where the bar whacks on you on the back of the head / neck. ;)
I have not. And I'm only snatching up to 50kg and clean/jerking close to 70kg at this point, so that's not too punishing on the body.

And along those lines, if the weight is relative to the "punishment", an older lifter can get plenty of lifting benefit with not too much of that, because their weights will never get all that high in an absolute sense.
 
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