Anyone got experience with ketogenic diets?

Discussion in 'Diet and Nutrition' started by Harry Westgate, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

    Hello,

    Here is an interesting article about almonds (good keto diet eating): Tip: The Snack That Shrinks Love Handles | T Nation

    Now, I eat them in the morning during my breakfast / meal, with good results because they satiate pretty well and provide energy when you use IF.

    Kind regards,

    Pet'
     
    Sean M likes this.
  2. Norcoaster

    Norcoaster Double-Digit Post Count

    Nice graphic- would be nice to see time depicted on it as well. My LDL went up considerably on low carb/paleo diet (never checked for ketosis) and has dropped at almost the same rate with reintroduction of some carbs like oatmeal and occasional wheat products. Possibly the numbers would have leveled out over time as my body potentially adapted to the increase dietary fat, but I was not feeling good at how high LDL got and how quickly.
     
  3. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

    Hello,

    Oatmeal contains a soluble fiber called beta-glucane which reduces LDL. This fibers also regulates blodd sugar.

    It appears that a daily consumption of about 60g can reduce LDL about 5 - 10% in 1 month

    Kind regards,

    Pet'
     
    ShawnM likes this.
  4. pet'

    pet' More than 5000 posts

  5. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    30 Grams of "Quality" Protein Per Serving

    mprevost's post provided some good information regarding the research on this.

    It has to do with...

    mTOR (Mammalian Target of Tapamycin)

    mTOR is the anabolic trigger that turns on the muscle building process. Leucine (the amino acid) is one of the triggers that turn on the anabolic process.

    Between 2.5 to 4 grams of Leucine is required to turn on mTOR.

    Percentages of Leucine In Proteins

    1) Whey has the highest percentage of Leucine, approximately 10%. Consuming 30 grams of whey would provide 3 gram of whey.

    2) Casein, Meats and Dairy percentage of Leucine is appoximately 8%. That means 30 gram of one of these protein sources would yield 2.4 grams of Leucine.

    Thus, you protein choices play a huge role in determine the amount of Leucine.

    The Age Factor

    1) Younger individual don't need as much Leucine to trigger mTOR. That meaning protein consumption that delivers around 2.5 gram of Leucine probably is enough.

    2) Older individuals need more protein to elicit a similar effect. Older individuals need approximately 3 plus gram of Leucine.

    That means older individuals need to consume higher protein intake.

    However, there is an anomaly with the...

    Ketogenic Diet and Leucine

    Research (Drs Stepehen Phinney and Jeff Volek) indicates Leucine levels remain elevated on the Ketogenic Diet.

    Thus, the amount of protein (Leucine) per serving may or may not be needed to keep mTOR turned on.

    With that said, it most better to opt for protein servings with the right amount of Leucine to insure mTOR is elicited; that providing you fat intake is in the right percentage range.

    90/8/2 ratio

    That is the "Traditional Ketogenic Diet" the was developed for individual with epilepsy

    MAD
    (Modified Atkins Diet)

    Research shows that this Modified Keto Diet is effective and more sustainable.

    Kenny Croxdale


     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2017
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  6. John22

    John22 First Timer

    This article on What is the hype about the keto diet? talks about the keto diet in a nice, simple way. There's a lot of over complicated information out there I personally found this article way more easy to understand and follow.
     
  7. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Simple Article

    The article does provide some overall fundamental information.

    Let break some of that information down from the article

    Different Types of Ketogenic Diets

    Cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD): This is not a Ketogenic Diet. As stated it is around 5 days of being on a Ketogenic Diet followed by a 2 day carbohydrate load.

    Research (Dr Jake Wilson) found that after 2 days of Carb Loading on let say a Saturday and Sunday, didn't get back in to ketosis until late Thursday or sometime Friday. That meant you only were in ketosis a day or so.

    Wilson research also found that the Cyclicial Ketogenic Diet increased body fat and minimize muscle gain.

    High-protein ketogenic diet: One of the issues with consuming too much protein is that it is converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis. When this happens, it takes you out of ketosis.

    You end up being on a high fat, high protein, low carb diet and never in ketosis.

    The general recommendation is that protein intake never be over 25% of your calorie intake. Consuming 35% of your calories from protein isn't going to work for most.

    The only way the top end of the amount of protein you can consume and still be in ketosis is to measure your ketones.

    Ketometer

    This is the most accurate method of determining if you are in ketosis.


    Ketogenic Diets Can Help You Lose Weight

    The primary factor in why the Ketogenic Diet works is that it take less food (fewer calories) to fill you up and stave off hunger.

    Thus, you end up losing less and losing more weight.

    A secondary component when carbohydrate intake is low, less insulin is released.

    As nutritionist Jay Robb stated, "Insulin is a Fat Maker..." This especially true for individual who are Insulin Resistant.

    Also, elevated insulin levels block the body from buring body fat for fuel.

    Side Effects and How to Minimize Them

    The Keto Flu is caused by a decrease in sodium levels.

    High carbohydrate diets cause water retention. Sodium is stored in water.

    On a low carbohydrate the body dump water; which means sodium is depleted to low levels.

    The lower levels of you sodium, the more larthagic you feel.

    Thus, a well formulated Ketogenic Diet means you need have a higher sodium intake. Ingesting more salt eliminates The Keto Flu.


    Information Not In The Article

    Strength Training: Strength Training (Limit Strength, Power, Speed, Hypertrophy, ...) need to be modified on the Kegogenic Diet vs the Standard American High Carbohydrate Diet.

    Another more lengthy topic for another time.

    Endurance Training: More research has been perform on the Ketogenic Diet and Endurance Training than Strength Training.

    Research shows that many individual perform as well or more effectively on the Kegogenic Diet.

    That due to that fact that Endurance Sports are preformed with less intensity; utilizing more body fat/ketones for energy.

    Keto Adapted Endurance Athletes were able to utilize a greater percentage of body fat/ketones than individual on the Standard American High Carbohydrate Diet.

    In doing so, Keto Adapted Endurance Athletes preserved glucose; minimizing or eliminating "Boking" because they ran out of muscle glycogen.

    Body Glucose

    The body store up to 500 gram of glucose; 2,000 calories.

    Body Fat

    Let's say a runner is 8% body fat and weights 140 lbs.

    That means they have 11.2 lbs of body fat.

    A pound of fat contains 3,500 calories.

    That means the 8%/140 lb Endurance Athlete would have 39,200 calories available to use; 11.2 lb fat X 3,500 calorie of fat per pound = 39,200).

    Keto Adapted Endurance Athletes have the ability to maintain higher glycogen levels for when they need them rather than burning out of them and "Bonking".

    Kenny Croxdale
     
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  8. HUNTER1313

    HUNTER1313 More than 500 posts

    In regards to the ckd. Wouldn't that be the anabolic diet? Maurillo pasqualies diet? Which he and his followers have had great success with.
    The high fat high protein is what Eddie hall is doing and he has dropped slot of fat and maintained his muscle. There might be a little extra help with him though
     
  9. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Forum Administrator Senior Certified Instructor

    -S-
     
  10. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Anabolic Diet

    Yes, DiPasquale's Anabolic Diet.

    DisPasquale then modified it to the Metabolic Diet.

    I tried it for a while but can't say that I had great success with it.

    The initial drop in water weight from dropping carbohydrates make it hard to train on during that 5 day period; a decreases in strength.

    However, after Carb Loading for 2 days, my strength went up.

    It was a roller coaster of feeling and lifting well followed by feeling tired and lifting less.

    Bodyopus

    Dan Duchane came out with his Bodyopus which is eh CKD, as well.

    Eddie Hall

    High fat and high protein probably is working for him.

    Eddie's so fat, I question if anyone could tell that he's gotten much more svelte; obtain a more slender figure.

    Most likely part of his higher protein intake is being converted to glucose.

    Better Lifting Through Chemistry

    Yes, that is helping him.

    Maintaining A Ketogenic Diet

    Initially, weight loss with the Ketogenic Diet is to to muscle glycogen depletion, water weight loss; dehydration.

    However, research had demonstrated that Keto Adapted individual eventually replenish muscle glycogen. That combined with a high sodium intake re-hydrates you.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
  11. HUNTER1313

    HUNTER1313 More than 500 posts

    Here's a link to the new Eddie
    Look At Eddie Hall's Insane Body Transformation Over The Past Two Years - BarBend
     
  12. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

  13. Ken Korcak

    Ken Korcak Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    The idea that too much protein will knock you out of ketosis is a myth. The process of Gluconeogenesis is a demand-driven process. Meaning your body only makes glucose when you need it. If you follow ketogains.com you will see that they are a high protein plan similar to what you will find with Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 20, 2019
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  14. deviant

    deviant Double-Digit Post Count

    There is a good reason professional athletes do not follow ketogenic diets (and low carb for that matter). They are ok if you are lifting couple of times a week and jog. But your sport involves sprints or bouts of high intensity low carb will be detrimental.

    Low carb also has been shown to lower T3 and serotonin levels if followed long term.
     
  15. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    The Ketogenic Diet For Athletes

    The Ketogenic Diet is dependent on the sport you are involved in.

    1) Phosphagen Energy System Sports

    The Ketogenic Diet, as well as any other diet, works with the Phosphagen Energy System.

    ATP is the fuel source not ketones nor glucose.

    2) Glycolytic Energy System Sports

    The Ketogenic Diet doesn't work in sports that fall into the Glycolytic Energy System.

    With that said, research by Rachel Gregory determined that the Ketogenic Diet worked. However, I question it.

    3) Oxidative Energy System Sports

    Research shows that the Ketogenic Diet work with athlete in the Oxidative Energy System. This is where the majority of research has been performed, on Endurance Athletes.

    Limit Strength (1RM) Training On Keto

    Limit Strength Training on the Ketogenic Diet require a different approach for optimal training results.

    Training needs to be maintained in the Phosphagen Energy System.

    1) Low Reps (1-3), not more than 5 per set.

    2) Longer Rest Periods between sets; allowing for more ATP Restoration.

    3) Less Volume. Shorter training sessions.

    Shorter training session are more effective, no matter what diet you are on.

    The Bulgarian Olympic Lifters proved that. They dominated the sport with short, more frequent training session.

    Power Training On Keto

    The same Limits Strength Training approach works for Power, as well.

    Sets and Reps are the same as Limit Strength. What differs is the training percentage used.

    Hypertrophy Training On Keto

    Traditional Bodybuilding Training falls more into the Glycolytic Energy System; which means this method isn't as effective for someone on the Ketogenic Diet.

    Cluster Set Hypertrophy Training

    Research by Dr Jonathan Oliver demonstrated this method works for increasing muscle mass.

    This method was found to enable athletes to maintain Power and Limit Strength while increasing muscle mass.

    Traditional Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Protocols increase muscle mass at the expense of a decrease in Limit Strength and Power

    Ironically, Oliver's Custer Set Hypertrophy Training Protocol is effective for individual on the Ketogenic Diet where the Phosphagen Energy System is used.

    Summary

    Strength Training on the Ketogenic Diet requires a different approach.

    Trying to continue to train on a Ketogenic Diet as you did on the Standard American Diet amount to trying to put a square peg in around hole.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
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  16. Snowman

    Snowman Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    I normally avoid asking for references in order to avoid being a buzz kill, but I would be interested in seeing the literature in this case.
     
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  17. deviant

    deviant Double-Digit Post Count

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  18. deviant

    deviant Double-Digit Post Count

    Depends on your goals. I put the best petrol in my car to make it faster and more efficient. As opposed to trying to tweak the engine so that I can run it on diesel. Similarly, I adjust my diet to optimize my performance, not the other way around.

    We can theorise until the cows come home, but as I said earlier there is a good reason the majority of professional athletes whose livelihood depends on performance, both in strength and endurance sports, don't follow low carb diets.
     
  19. Ken Korcak

    Ken Korcak Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    Actually, more athletes are switching to this because of lower inflammatory markers, means they heal from injuries faster. It does take about 6 months for your body to switch over and return to the same strength before you made the diet switch. Make sure you wait until your offseason to make the switch so your body has time to adapt.

    As for T3, I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism in 2013, I've never taken any medications, I'm on a ketogenic diet and my thyroid levels are normal now. Both weight loss and calorie restriction affect your thyroid, both happen on a ketogenic diet. (side note: the fats used on animals that you show suppressed T3 are PUFA oils)
    Is Keto Bad for the Thyroid? | Mark's Daily Apple
     
  20. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Ketogenic Diet

    I've been on the Ketogenic Diet for three year due a Metabolic Condition. There's definitely a learning curve and adjustment time period before you become acclimated.

    With that in mind, let me address...

    Fact: Too Much Protein Will Knock You Out Of Ketosis

    Consuming too much protein is a fact rather than a myth. Research by a multitude of individual (Drs Volek, Phinney, Wilson, Attia, etc) have demonstrated that.

    My Personal Data

    Initially, I used the Keto Test Strips that you pee on. The readings were inconsistent and eventually, the Keto Test Strips just didn't work. That appears to be an issue with many individuals.

    I now have a Ketometer which provide me with a much more consistent and reliable reading. The Ketometer has demonstrated a definitive fluctuation in my ketones dependent on protein consumpiton.

    Too much protein pushes my readings down to .6 mmol/L; .5 is considered to mean you are in light ketosis.

    When I maintain the right protein to fat to, my reading are between .9 toi 1.2 mmol/L with my highest reading being 2.0

    Keto Chart

    [​IMG]

    Gluconeogenesis

    For those who are reading this and unfamiliar with Ketogenic Diet...

    When too much protein is consumed, it is converted into glucose (gluconeogenesis).

    The majority of individual who try the Ketogenic Diet are never on the diet or in ketosis.

    They end up being on a high fat, high protein, low carbohydrate diet. That in part is why the don't perform or feel well.

    They are still "Glucose Dependent". However, they don't have enough glucose to make thing work right and they are able to effective access ketones for energy.

    Dr Shawn Baker's Carnivore Diet

    Baker performs well on the Carnivore Diet, a high protein diet beyond the recommended percentage for the Ketogenic Diet.

    In a discussion with Snowman, he pointed out that Baker's high protein intake/ percentage intake enabled him to covert protein to glucose energy; Baker still having enough protein available to maintaining and increasing muscle mass.

    The Take Home Message

    High protein doesn't mean you are on a Ketogenic Diet.

    Athlete Switching To Keto

    I question if many athletes are switching.

    1) Most likely the majority end up going on a high fat, high protein, low carbohydrate diet; believing they are on Keto.

    There is a huge misunderstanding of what a Ketogenic Diet; what to eat and how to make it work.

    2) The majority of individual who to get it right when they are on it, can't hang with it; there is high drop out rate.

    a) Due to how restrictive the Ketogenic Diet is very few individuals/athlete are able to maintain it.

    b) When their strength/energy levels drop, most panic and stop the diet.

    c) These individual don't understand that the Ketogenic Diet requires a completely different training protocol. They continue with the same training protocol they were using on a Standard American Diet, which doesn't work well.

    A Ketogenic Diet Strength Training Program (Limit Strength, Power, Speed, Hypertrophy, etc) requires a different approach.

    Continuing to use the same training protocol for a Ketogenic Diet as you did with a Standard American Diet amount to using a crescent wrench to drive a nail instead of a hammer.

    The crescent wrench can get the job done but it isn't the right tool for the job.

    Kenny Croxdale


     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019

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