Anyone got experience with ketogenic diets?

Discussion in 'Diet and Nutrition' started by Harry Westgate, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. Snowman

    Snowman Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Ah, I see. It was your mention of "long term" that sparked my interest, as there is very little long-term information out there on low carb diets, aside from case studies and whatnot. The studies you posted covered time frames of 7-18 days, in one they dropped carbs to 2% of caloric intake, in the other they adjusted the macros within the context of an 800 kcal/day diet. They both noted a decrease in T3. This is not particularly surprising. Switching over from any kind of carb usage to very low carb, or to a significantly calorie restricted diet, is going to cause some very predictable results. In either case, you're reducing the available energy sources, either directly through caloric restriction, or indirectly because the individual's body isn't able to take advantage of fat as a fuel right away.
    Short term, someone going from a "normal diet" to keto is absolutely going to see a drop in T3, testosterone, probably serotonin (I haven't looked at that but it makes sense), and an increase in cortisol. This is known as the "adaptation phase," and can last anywhere from a week to a few months, and can either be "toughed out" or mitigated through a variety of practices. As @Ken Korcak mentioned, it takes a while to get things up and running when you turn the body's metabolism on it's head. However, I don't think we can look at adaptation physiology and assume it's representative of long term effects.

    There is a special rabbit hole with regard to testosterone, but at the end of the day testosterone function ends up doing the same thing as everything else.
     
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  2. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    The Goal

    Y
    es, to some extent it depends on the goal. Due to a Metabolic Condition, my goal was/is to find a Ketogenic Diet Strength Training Protocol (Limit Strength, Power, Speed and Hypertrophy) that allows me to elicit the optimal training response that corresponds to my diet.

    To reiterate, for those on a Ketogenic Diet for whatever reason the Phosphagen Energy System works.

    The Ketogenic Diet works for many Endurance Athletes.

    The Sport Energy System

    The Sport Energy System is the determinate factor in determining the diet you use.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
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  3. LukeV

    LukeV More than 300 posts

    This is a recurring theme on this forum (lol) but the evidence that protein up to around 200g daily will kick you out of ketosis is weak compared to studies that show people maintaining ketosis well and truly up to around that level. A number of experts have moved away from the claim that high fat is a prerequisite. I have seen the word "myth" used but the consensus (always a dangerous word) appears to be that it is technically possible but practically unlikely for a high protein diet to terminate ketosis.

    [Edit: on reflection the word "consensus" above is unhelpful as the conclusions on keto and protein are really mixed]

    Personally I eat lots of protein and never much fat and yet go into ketosis easily just by restricting dietary carbohydrate to less than 50g daily and replacing with lean protein. Individual variability? Maybe! But if like me you don't like fat then try going into ketosis just by restricting carbohydrate and increasing protein. It works for everyone I know.

    As for urine testing for ketosis, it has the risk of false negatives as ketones do not always appear at testable levels in urine (particularly once ketosis is well established). I am not aware of urine testing showing false positives, the sticks reliably identify the presence of ketones.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
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  4. deviant

    deviant Double-Digit Post Count

    Snowman, my mistake. But then again, there are no long term studies looking into it.
     
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  5. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    Given the variability reported re amounts of protein, ease of going into ketosis etc I have to wonder if there isn't an ethnic/genetic component to this as well as an individual one.

    Certainly every human and mammal on the planet goes into ketogenic state when starving, but are some groups (outside of outliers like the Inuit) more or less prone to kicking over?
     
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  6. deviant

    deviant Double-Digit Post Count

    Which sports is keto diet superior for?

    Also, if I may ask, what metabolic condition do you have that makes you choose keto?
     
  7. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Ketogenic Diet Training

    I would not phrase the Ketogenic Diet as being superior for any sport over another diet.

    The sport's energy system is the determinate of if the Ketogenic Diet would work or not.

    The Energy System

    1) The Phosphagen Energy System: This system is reliant on ATP, not ketones nor glucose.

    The Phosphagen Energy System falls into activities under 30 seconds. However, ATP is pretty much depleted in 10 - 15 seconds in high intensity training and sports.

    Thus, the Ketogenic Diet works for sports that are limited to 15 seconds or less: Powerlifting (my sport), Olympic Lifting, 100 meter Sprint, etc.

    2) The Glyolytic Energy System

    Sports and training in events that last 30 seconds to around 2.5 minutes need glucose.

    The Ketogenic Diet isn't going to work for sports like...

    400 meter sprints, 400 meter swim, high repetition bodybuilding sets, etc.

    3) Oxidative Energy System

    The Ketogenic Diet works well for many Endurance Athletes, based on research from Drs Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek, etc.

    My Metabolic Condition

    Let just leave it at that. It's not a topic that I enjoy talking about.

    It's more like the diet chose me, rather than me choosing it.

    Based on my research, the Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting were the two methods that might help. I am on the Ketogenic Diet for that reason and combine it with Intermittent Fasting.

    I get blood work every 6 month and see a specialist. I am maintaining, which is good.

    So, the Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting may or may not be helping, who know.

    My Strength Training On Keto

    Initially, I used the same training protocol for Keto as when I was on the Standard American Diet, SAD. That didn't work.

    What I determined is Ketogenic Strength Training (Limit Strength, Power, Speed, Hypertrophy) needs to revolve around The Phosphagen Energy System.

    Training Repetition in an exercise need to be between 1 - 3 per set, no more than 5. Which is the rep range that Limit Strength, Power and Speed Training fall into.

    However, Hypertrophy Training falls more into the Glycolytic Energy System.

    The solution for optimizing Hypertrophy Training is to train it in The Phosphagen Energy System. This lead me to...

    Hypertrophy Cluster Set Training

    Dr Jonathan Oliver's research on Hypertrophy Cluster Set Training evolved from finding a way to increase muscle mass while maintaining Power and Limit Strength.

    Traditional Hypertrophy/Bodybuilding Training increases muscle mass at the expense of Limit Strength and Power.

    Oliver found that Hypertrophy Cluster Set Training increases muscle mass while maintaining and/or increasing Limit Strength and Power.

    Cluster Sets were performed in The Phosphagen Energy System. Short cluster of repetition performed with rest periods between repetition in a set of 15 - 45 second, allowing ATP restoration.

    Ketogenic Diet Hypertrophy Cluster Set Training

    Oliver's protocol caters to training in The Phosphagen Energy System; meaning Oliver's protocol is effective for individual who are on the Ketogenic Diet, as well.

    A Comprehensive Guide to Bodybuilding on the Ketogenic Diet | Ruled Me

    This article by Craig Clarke provide some great information that provide an over all understanding of how an individual on a Ketogenic Diet need to train.

    "The Earn While You Learn Program"

    a) It took me about a year to really get the Ketogenic Diet down; I continue to learn.

    b) It took me about another year to understand the right Ketogenic Diet Strength Training Protocol.

    My Recommendations

    I like the Ketogenic Diet. However, I don't advocate it.

    That because it is so restrictive, which makes it harder to maintain. The harder you make something for someone, the less likely they are to keep doing it.

    I am a huge fan of Intermittent Fasting. It provide some of the same benefits as The Ketogenic Diet.

    Metabolic Inflexibility

    Glucose Dependent: Individuals who are on high carbohydrate diets use glucose but aren't efficient at burning body fat/ketones.

    Keto Adapted: Individuals who are on the Ketogenic Diet are more effective at burning body fat/ketones.

    Once Keto Adapted they have the same amount of glucose in reserve as those on high carbohydrate diet.

    However, Keto Adapted individual aren't efficient at using glucose.

    Metabolically Flexible

    Intermittent Fasting individuals are like Hybrid Cars. They able to switch from glucose to ketone and ketones to glucose dependent on the energy demands.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  8. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    After a bit of digging it seems ketone bodies produce 24 ATP per molecule, compared to 36 for glucose. But I haven't been able to find any info on turnover rate- which process yields ATP faster.

    Presumably the glucose pathway is faster as it is not oxygen dependent.

    The biggest performance difference would be glycolytic pathway is powering fast twitch as well as slow twitch, while ketones only provide fuel directly for slow twitch.

    Ketones are still going to be recharging CrP stores and this very well might be close or equal to the recharge rate of glycolysis.

    Either way, per Kenny's experience if you limit yourself to short duration high output and aerobic work you'd be fine. Also relatively high effort slow grinds aught to be OK as well. Slow twitch really are capable of similar force per diameter, they are just a little slower and don't get larger as readily as fast twitch.
     
  9. Ken Korcak

    Ken Korcak Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

  10. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    This is a somewhat decent article on the Ketogenic Diet.

    As I have posted, the Ketogenic Diet caters to those who train and compete in the Phosphagen and Oxidative Energy Systems.

    I've read, Rachael Gregory's research, "A Low-Carbohydrate Ketogenic Diet Combined with 6-Weeks of Crossfit". It indicates a low "Ketogenic Diet" carbohydrate diet works. However, I can't buy into the fact that it works well for those in the Glycolytic Energy System.

    A second factor is that the majority of individual who "try" the Ketogenic Diet never get on the diet because of their misconception regarding the macro percentages necessary.

    Third, very few maintain the Ketogenic Diet because it is so demanding. The harder you make something, the less likely someone will maintain it.

    As I have stated, I like the Ketogenic Diet. However, I don't recommend it due to how hard it is to stick with.

    And finally, the Ketogenic Diet require a completely different training approach.

    My observation are based on the research data that I have hunted down and practical application for over three years of being on the Ketogenic Diet due to a metabolic condition.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
  11. Ken Korcak

    Ken Korcak Double-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    So even though the research shows that it does work well, you aren't convinced? I get it if you don't want to do it yourself, but that doesn't disqualify the research.

    The other misconception is that a ketogenic diet is only difficult if you are constantly chasing ketones. If you follow ketogains.com they prescribe a high protein version of the diet, that works very well for strength athletes.
     
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  12. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    The Research

    As the saying goes, "The Devil is in the details". Gregory's research was a bit lacking in the details.

    Kephart Research Abstract, as with all Abstracts, lacks some detail. I'd like to read the complete article.

    With said, one example of incorrect research is Ancel Keys' Cholesterol Hypothesis from over 50 years ago. That dogma continues to be perpetuated.

    Secondly, many individual in the field of Exercise Science, like Drs Greg Haff and Mike Israetel, question how well someone on a Ketogenic Diet will preform in sport or activity that is dependent on the Glycolytic Energy System.

    Israetel acknowledges that the Ketogenic Diet work under certain conditions, the Phospahgen Energy System.

    An individual on a Ketogenic Diet performing in a Gycolytic Energy System sport and/or event amount to using a Crescent Wrench to drive a nail rather than a Hammer. It the wrong tool for the job.

    High Protein Ketogenic Diet

    That depends on what you define as High Protein. There some definitely guideline that need to be adhered to when it comes you percentage of protein and fats, carbohydrates are more of a definitive number of 50 grams or less.

    Individual who dramatically increase their protein too high end of coverting protein to glucose, via gluconeogenesis. It take them out of ketosis; shifting them over to utilizing glucose.

    I use a Glcometer and Ketometer to provide some feed back on where I am.

    Muscle Glucose

    Research determined that once Keto Adapted, muscle glycogen storage is initially that same as those on a Standard American High Carbohydrate Diet.

    Keto Adapted makes you efficient as using ketones but not glucose. The reverse is true with Glucose Dependent individual. The are efficient at accessing glucose but not ketones.

    Ketogenic Diet Strength Train (Limit Strength, Power, Speed, and Hypertrophy)

    Training on the Ketogenic Diet requires a different approach with a well written program and protocol catering to the Phosphagen Energy System.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
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  13. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    A good read from a Crossfit coach with a solid amount of keto experience:

    The Ketogenic Diet
     
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  14. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    As per the article, "The main issue I have noticed is my glycolytic performance is not as good."

    Kenny Croxdale
     
  15. frederickk

    frederickk Double-Digit Post Count

    No, but I've read of people getting results from it.

    It has also been a while, but I listened to an episode of Science Vs that discussed the ketogenic diet. From what I remember, the conclusion says that yes, it does help with losing weight but it is no different than other diets that restrict calorie intake. It also mentioned athletes (marathon runners?) that tried it but performance was left wanting. The good effects has been proven on mice but not so much on humans. One of the members of the podcast felt she had a clearer head, an effect that was implied to be widely experienced by those who undertake the diet but no scientific basis was used as it was purely anecdotal.

    Are the effects on heart health in the long run known among those who practice it? Not challenging it as my knowledge is very sparse, but interested to know. I mentioned it once to a relative who is a doctor but she said she would not recommend it because of the fat intake. In a quick search I found a study in 2004 that it did lower triglycerides, blood sugar in obese patients but in 2014 another study said that the positive effects are only for a time. Still, these are just 2 sources.
     
  16. Al Ciampa

    Al Ciampa Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    Yes, and no; and yes, and no. Because at some point, we all have to execute our own intervention and observe how “you” respond.
     
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  17. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Calories

    Any diet that places you in a calorie deficit works.

    The benefit of the Ketogenic Diet is...

    1) Satiety: Kills hunger.

    2) Maintains lower insulin levels. Insulin promotes fat storage and blocks fat burning.

    Drs Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney's Research

    Their research indicated that endurance athlete perform better on a Ketogenic Diet. Phinney's research goes back to the 1980's on this.

    The Cholesterol Hypothesis

    The foundation of misinformation on fat intake creating cardiovascular issues go back to the psuedo science of Ancel Key over 50 years ago; The Seven Countries Study.

    Keys studied 22 countries. He then threw out 15 of the countries that did not validate his hypothesis. That is not science.

    Cholesterol Profiles

    Many physician don't know how to read a Cholesterol Profile; like mine. He only looks at LDL.

    The determinate factor of if you LDL is good or bad is dependent on LDL Particle A or B numbers.

    Physician never tell you about that and won't run a test for it.

    Triglyceride:HDL Ratio

    Your Triglyceride:HDL Ratio will tell you if your LDL is in the good or bad zone.

    Remnant Cholesterol Number

    This is another important number that will provide you good information on if you're in the good or bad zone.

    Very few physician are familiar with Remnant Cholesterol; what it is, mean or how to determinate it.

    My Cholesterol Chart

    I previously posted information regarding my cholesterol number while on the Ketogenic Diet. I've been on the Ketogenic Diet for over three years due to a metabolic condition.

    I experiment with fat intake, percentages of fat intake (saturated and monounsaturated).

    Thus, my Total Cholesterol and LDL fluctuate a lot with each test. My test appear to be chaos but isn't, if you know how to read it.

    My Triglyceride:HDL Ratio and Remnant Cholesterol Number on each test are all grouped in the good area.

    The key is knowing how to break down the number and their relationship to each other.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  18. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Forum Administrator Senior Certified Instructor

    Keto dinner yesterday. Prosciutto di Parma, ricotta, avocado. Put a spoonful of either ricotta or avocado inside a piece of prosciutto, roll up, and eat. Keto cannoli. Yum. Repeat. Yum again. Repeat more. Yum more.

    Recent test, CT scan for coronary calcium. Lower number is better, under 100 is good, 400 is bad. I got a zero.

    Happy, happy, happy.

    :)

    -S-
     
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  19. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    If one is running a marathon for personal reasons, keto will work fine. At the competitive level marathon athletes are dipping deep into glycolysis.

    Again, the major difference is 36 ATP per glucose, to 24 per ketone body. Then ketones need oxygen which is another rate-limiting factor while pyruvate throughput is oxygen independent. Ketones provide zero direct ATP recharge for type II fibers, limited to what migrates out of the mitochondria, while glycolysis does both, rate-limited ultimately by how well the body clears pyruvate.

    Upper limit for both is the buildup of phos from the PCr pathway - higher the intensity the quicker you bonk.
     
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  20. frederickk

    frederickk Double-Digit Post Count

    Thank you for the very detailed reply, Kenny. The lowering of insulin levels is particularly interesting - saw in the same study I said previously if I remember it right that the opposite was observed in mice, but for human subjects the effect was more positive.
     

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