Anyone got experience with ketogenic diets?

Discussion in 'Diet and Nutrition' started by Harry Westgate, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Cliff Notes

    The information that I provided you was the Cliff Notes.

    Post 75
    The Case for a High-Carb/Low-Fat Diet

    More information is provide at the above link, Post 75. It includes two different Cholesterol Blood Profiles of mine below.

    3/25/2016 (High Monounstrated Fat/Moderately Low Saturated Fat Intake)
    a) Total Cholesterol: 170
    b) LDL: 115
    c) HDL: 45
    d) Triglycerides: 54

    1/10/19 (High Saturated Fat/Moderate Monounsaturated Fat Intake)
    a) Total Cholesterol: 223
    b) LDL: 163
    c) HDL: 45
    d) Triglycerides: 60

    As you can see, the numbers are drastically different. However, the important numbers that are not provided: Triglyceride:HDL Radio and Remnant Cholesterol are in the same category.

    With that said, here is the comparison.

    Triglyderide:HDL Ratio

    (Triglycerides divided by HDL

    3/25/16: 1.2

    1/10/19: 1.33

    A Ratio of under 2 to is very good. A reading of up around 4 isn't good.

    Secondly, a lower Triglyceride:HDL Ratio indicates that I have more Particle A LDL (good) than Particle B LDL (bad).

    While my Total Cholesterol and LDL numbers are completely different, both Triglyceride:HDL reading are essentially in the same place.

    Remnant Cholesterol

    Total Cholesterol - LD - HDL

    3/25/16: 10

    1/10/19: 15

    Remnant Cholesterol below 20 is good.

    To reiterate, while my Total Cholesterol and LDL numbers are completely different, both Remnant Cholesterol numbers fall into the same category.

    LDL Number

    Your LDL Number doesn't mean much unless without measuring your Particle A and B.

    The majority of people have been lead to believe that a high LDL number is an issue.

    Many physicians only look at the LDL number, which is wrong. Physicians lead you to incorrectly believe that a high LDL number is an issue; which it may or may not be.

    Drug company TV ad promote high LDL is an issue, pushing their drug that will eliminate the something that may be a non-issue.

    Coronary Calcium Score, CAS

    As Steve Friedes (Post 78) stated, this is another important test.

    Snowman, who post on this site, has gone into CAS an important number, as well.

    Eating Plans

    There are a variety of good eating plans that will work. The key is finding something you enjoy that work for you.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  2. LightningFast

    LightningFast Double-Digit Post Count

    It is easy to make a case by cherry picking research. To get the data you have to dig PubMed at considerable depth, something I don't have the time for. For now the fact I mentioned earlier, namely, that most professional endurance athletes don't switch to keto diets, tells me this way of eating may not be most optimal for that kind of activity.

    From my personal experience, low carb is ok as long as you don't have to do anything high intensity. I was following it for four month, and my Girevoy Sport performance suffered a great deal. Many self-experimenters reported the same effect.
     
  3. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    Lack of Knowledge and Experience

    One of the underlying causes of why athletes stick with something is a lack of knowledge and practical experience. Their education is handed down to them from other.

    Once they are indoctrinated with a certain belief, it's hard for them to accept anything new.

    The 3 Stages Of Truth In Life | HuffPost
    1. The first stage is ridicule. When a new idea or concept is brought up, it’s so strange that it’s completely absurd. People cannot fathom this idea and how it fits into their lives, so they simply laugh at how impossible it seems.
    2. The second stage is opposition. After a new concept hasn’t made it past the first stage, people begin to worry that it’s here to stay. A few might support the concept, but most will resist because they see it as a threat to everything they’re familiar with.
    3. The third stage is self-evident. There is increasing evidence that supports the idea, which goes from having a few early supporters to entering the mainstream. A majority of people support the fact and come to accept it as a given.
    Over the years, I've constantly had to relearn something and gone through all three stages.

    Unfortunately, many stop at the first stage.

    Endurance Athletes And The Ketogenic Diet

    Most of the research with athletes and the Ketogenic Diet is with Endurance Athletes.

    Dr Stephen Phinney's research from the 1980's demonstrated an increase in performance when Endurance Athletes were Keto Adapted.

    Since then, others and Jeff Volek's research, in conjunction with Phinney's, have demonstrated that same.

    High Intensity Training On The Ketogenic Diet

    I've been on the Ketogenic Diet for over three years.

    My training revolves around Limit Strength (Powerlifting) and Power Training.

    Part of what I learned is that High Intensity Training on the Ketogenic Diet requires a different training approach. I have multiple post regarding this on this site.

    The Cliff Notes are...

    1) Phosphagen Energy System Training: High Intensity Training on the Ketogenic Diet is effective when your training is written for and performed in this system.

    2) Glycolytic Energy System: High Intensity Training appears to be less than optimal for Keto Adapted athletes in this system.

    With that said, research (Rachael Gregory) has indicated once Keto Adapted, athletes training in the Glyclolytic Energy System perform optimally.

    Al Caimpa
    Al Ciampa, Author at StrongFirst

    In a resent email conversation with Al, he stated, ...

    "I have had much success over the past 25-odd years using a very low carb approach for body composition and inflammation. ...I’ve always been successful with glycolytic training while eating very low carb."

    Snowman

    This is another member of this site that is well versed in this area. As per Snowman, in a previous email conversation with him, he stated...

    "The main thing that the research is bearing out, is that our bodies will give us what we demand of them. If I'm on a low carb diet, but doing a lot of glycolytic training, my body will adapt to produce and use lots of glucose."

    Based on Al and Snowman's information, I am now having to re-evaluate my position of athletes training in the Glycolytic Energy System; going back through the 3 Stages of Truth.

    3) Oxidative Energy System: To reiterate, this is the most researched area when it come to Endurance Athletes training/competing on the Ketogenic Diet. The research showing that many individual perform at optimal levels.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  4. Al Ciampa

    Al Ciampa Quadruple-Digit Post Count Certified Instructor

    Kudos to you, Kenny, for truly having an open mind, and remaining a lifelong student.
     
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  5. LightningFast

    LightningFast Double-Digit Post Count

    For amateur athletes it may be true. However, in professional sport where money follows results this is less likely. But who knows, maybe in a decade keto will become the norm. Tim Noakes, the running guru, keeps promoting it, so who knows.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  6. kennycro@@aol.com

    kennycro@@aol.com More than 500 posts

    The Sport's Energy SystemS

    First of all, the Ketogenic Diet is effective for amateur and professional athletes in certain sports; the Phosphagen and Oxidative Energy Systems.

    That providing....

    1) A well written Ketogenic Diet is followed and maintained.

    2) A well written Ketogenic Diet Training Plan is devised and maintained.

    However, as I noted in my previous post, Al Caimpa and Matt/Snowman (Pre-Med) have determined, as well as Rachael Gregory's research with Cross Fit, that the Ketogenic Diet works Glycolytic Energy System athletes.

    Keto Adapted

    As Matt/Snowman stated, "The main thing that the research is bearing out, is that our bodies will give us what we demand of them."

    One of the primary keys to this is being Keto Adapted. As with anything, it takes time for the body to adjust. With the Ketogenic Diet it takes weeks and sometimes months.

    Discipline and Dedication

    The majority of individuals who try the Ketogenic Diet don't have the discipline nor the dedication to stick with it until it works.

    Secondly, those to "Try" the Ketogenic Diet are never on the diet.

    Thus, the issue isn't the diet, the fault lies with the individual.

    This takes us back to a...

    Lack Of Knowledge and Practical Experience

    1) The majority of individuals, coaches and nutritionist lack knowledge and practical experience when it comes to the Ketogenic Diet.

    2) The majority of individuals and coaches lack knowledge and practical experience when it comes to writing a Ketogenic Diet Strength Training Program.

    Take Home Message

    It's "Garbage in and garbage out".

    1) Not knowing enough to have a well written Ketogenic Diet...

    2) Not being able to maintain it...

    3) Not knowing how to write a Ketogenic Diet Training Program...

    all lead failure.

    Becoming The Norm

    The Ketogenic Diet will never become the norm. That because the Ketogenic Diet is so restrictive; the majority of individual don't have the discipline to maintain it.

    That is why I don't recommend the Ketogenic Diet, even though I am on it and like it.

    I have mentioned in multiple post on this site that I promote and recommend Intermittent Fasting due to its simplicity. Nothing to fix or count, just skip a meal.

    Intermittent Fasting also provides some of the same benefits as the Ketogenic Diet.

    Drs Tim Noakes, Dr Stepehen Phinney, Jeff Volek, Dom D'Agonstino, Jake Wilson, Ryan Lowery, Peter Attia, Antonio Paoli...

    All of these individual's research has demonstrated the Ketogenic Diet works, if you know what you are doing, which is true of everything.

    The information provides is based on my...

    1) Research on the Ketogenic Diet

    2) Research on what I term, "Ketogenic Diet Strength Training" and it application.

    3) Part of my job and education involves working with other in this area; to a lesser degree than Al and Matt/Snowman's.

    Kenny Croxdale
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
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  7. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    If I'm ingesting this properly, the keto diet works as well as as a more balanced diet for most athletic endeavors if it is properly administered. This seems to be well established although its suitability for high intensity work appears to be anecdotal at this point. I haven't seen where anyone is claiming keto yields superior athletic performance across the board outside of some fairly specific undertakings, and in those cases it seems more of logistical advantage.

    It has long been established as an effective therapeutic diet for certain metabolic issues and for epilepsy (when tolerated and where contemporary meds are contraindicated), so in this case its obvious why it would be used.

    In the absence of existing medical concerns, can anyone articulate what dangers or deficiencies this diet is fixing or how one would otherwise make the case for using it recreationally?
     
  8. ali

    ali Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    In this article the author, a doctor no less, uses the term 'nutritional dogma' not once, not twice but 14 times.
    What does this refer to?
    He also uses the term 'ivory tower' scientists and phds. And with the cited links and studies sets out to prove to the reader that nutritional dogmatism is wrong, seems convinced himself that he achieves this with the concluding remarks 'class dismissed'.
    Why such fervour, why with such zeal and aggression, does he present his argument?

    I can only presume 'nutritional dogma' means the general guidelines which morph into a standard American Diet or western diet. And in fact the studies are compared to this vague standard or with the even more vague term 'a usual diet'.
    And reading those studies, he comments:

    Not only did their performance remain unchanged, but their body composition improved, as they lost about 5 lbs of fat while maintaining their muscle mass. They were thriving!......
    Conclusion: It appears that elite gymnasts can disregard the nutritional dogma and consider low carb approaches.'

    This the nutritional dogma that a low carb high protein diet led to maintaing strength whilst losing fat.

    We'd all agree, would we not, that bears do take their toilet roll with them to the woods.....
    And in the study the authors state that they did not expect the participants to be in full ketogenesis
    .....THIS IS CRUCIAL......because they were only in low level ketosis. They were burning fat. Like everyone will do when in energy deficit.
    We produce ketones all the time. We can burn fat and not be anywhere near ketogenesis..... And so, to burn fat you do not need to eat fat.
    The ability to burn fat is not dependent on dietary fat.

    Back to the study......
    Those on low carb ate 1972 +/-271 calories a day.
    Those not ate 2275+/-258.
    (the study uses kj, adjusted by me into calorie value)

    Without adjustments, on average a deficit of 303 calories per day.
    Over 30 days, that's 9090 calorie difference.
    Or taking a max difference of 832 calories a day to 24960 for 30.

    Now we need a consensus, let's take a deficit of 3500 calorie to be a ball park deficit, that 500 a day to burn somewhere between 1 to 2 lb of fat.
    So 9090 equals 2.6. 24960 equals 7.1.

    So the claim of losing 5 lb on a keto but not keto diet is nutritional dogma, that dogma of energy balance.

    It is also worth noting that those keto but not keto gymnasts took vitamin supps and plant extracts.
    I can only presume to replace the nutrients they'd would have otherwise got from eating some fruit. Presumptuous, I know....

    Then the anti nutritional dogmatism rips into one of those nutritionist ivory tower PhD types because he states ketogenic diets are no different than another calorie restricted diet for fat loss. When the evidence is right there in the actual study he quotes from!

    So....wtf....we are not in Kansas anymore.

    Back to the actual study.....
    Those who can be arsed can go to the link to find another link to another ketogenic diet.....

    Impact of a 6-week non-energy-restricted ketogenic diet on physical fitness, body composition and biochemical parameters in healthy adults. - PubMed - NCBI

    We detected a mildly negative impact from this 6-week non-energy-restricted KD on physical performance (endurance capacity, peak power and faster exhaustion). Our findings lead us to assume that a KD does not impact physical fitness in a clinically relevant manner that would impair activities of daily living and aerobic training. However, a KD may be a matter of concern in competitive athletes.'

    Back on terra ferma. As discussed, there are good dogmatic physiological reasons why this is so.

    We can agree with the above, right?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2019
  9. Pavel Macek

    Pavel Macek More than 2500 posts Master Certified Instructor

    Hint from the nature:

    - essential amino acids
    - essential fatty acids
    - essential carbs... wait a minute...

    (And I am not saying cut carbs altogether, although I am low-carb/keto/IF guy, as it keeps my brain sharp)
     
  10. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    This is only true because we can internally manufacture glucose from fats and proteins, otherwise there would indeed be "essential carbohydrates".

    Again, just because it can be done isn't really a healthful reason to do it. I'm really looking for the why - how do you make the case for a maintenance metabolic strategy that isn't used by any other animal let alone mammal, to someone who has no existing medical concerns?
     
  11. ali

    ali Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    @Pavel Macek... Yes. Entirely.
    Carbs, specifically glucose is not an essentail dietary requirement.
    It is however an essential one to life. If you do not eat any, your body will with absolute certainty make some.
    It is simply a matter of how much with a combination of fats and protein.
    You could eat 100% carb and be way under your dietary calorie needs and burn fat, produce ketones and carry on until arriving at ketogenesis should you choose.
    Many millions of people do this not out of a lifestyle choice but out of food shortage and poverty.
    In our western privilege it is easy to temporarily suspend the fundamental reason why ketogenesis exists....

    I agree with Kenny here, most people on keto are not on the Ketogenic Diet anyway. Most people, including me, who may skips meals here and there, go lower carb here and there too and lower fat too, are, in all probability, nowhere near ketogenesis. Personally, I'm very grateful for that.
     
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  12. Snowman

    Snowman Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Let's be judicious in how we look at elite athletes. Most elite athletes have been elite their whole lives, and eat the things that they grew up eating. They grew up eating the things that the people around them ate (and training the way the people around them trained, for what it's worth). Elite athleticism is largely a result of genetics and training volume. Sure, most ultra marathoners would probably do well to become keto-adpated, and someone competing in the Crossfit games is probably gonna want some carbs between events, but most athletic endeavors are somewhere in between those two.
    In my mind, the question of diet and athleticism is not one of peak performance, but one of performance longevity. How long can you stay healthy, and therefore continue to train at a level that keeps you competitive? If we want a clear cut answer to that, too bad. We need another 20 years or so. Until then...bring on the N=1 experiments and personal anecdotes.
     
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  13. Steve Freides

    Steve Freides Forum Administrator Senior Certified Instructor

    Carbs make me sleepy; keto does not.

    An interesting compromise is to build off some of the ideas in the seminal IF book, Warrior Diet - at your big meal of the day, save carbs for last. I am certainly not a scientist, but my understanding is that the body will process carbs better if you first get your digestive tract "set up" for a meat-and-veggies type of meal and then add the carbs. This has been my own experience, and when I'm not doing keto, I am usually well under any keto threshold for carbs until my evening meal.

    -S-
     
  14. offwidth

    offwidth More than 5000 posts

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  15. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    @Steve Freides
    If you want to zonk me out, feed me anything with melted cheese. I'll literally be fighting to stay awake within 10 minutes.

    Normally if I feel up and down sleepy it is a sure sign I'm dehydrated.

    I try to eat and hold off on any beverages for 1/2 an hour. I don't always have the luxury, but when I do it seems to help with all types of macro combinations.
     
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  16. ali

    ali Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    “Masters of Life and Death” —An Excerpt from The Quick and the Dead | StrongFirst

    A timely interjection....the above....2 important aspects for mitochondrial health: calorie restriction and intermittent fasting ( as related here on this thread).

    Nothing to do with eating FAT.

    You do not need to be anywhere near ketogenesis, to be able to burn fat. And to restate: you do not need to eat dietary fat to burn fat.

    If you are healthy you will produce ketones from fatty acid metabolism.
    This again is not dependent on dietary percentages of carb v fat. You will produce ketones even if the bulk of your energy comes from carb.

    Trained aerobic athletes can utilise fat for fuel at higher percentages but this is not to do with dietary intake necessarily, in fact achievable with 52% energy needs derived from carb.

    Nutrition for Ultramarathon Running: Trail, Track, and Road in: International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism Volume 29 Issue 2 ()

    Regarding fat adaptation protocols:

    "Dietary protocols, such as glycogen manipulation or low-carbohydrate high-fat diets, are currently popular among ultramarathon runners. Despite the latter dietary manipulation showing increased total fat oxidation rates during submaximal exercise, the role in enhancing ultramarathon running performance is currently not supported".

    "high fat oxidation rates also appear to be inherent in ultramarathon runners regardless of background macronutrient dietary modifications. A recent study (n = 15 men) found a wide range of maximal fat oxidation rates (mean: 68% (95% confidence interval [61–74%] V˙O2max" style="position: relative;" tabindex="0" id="MathJax-Element-6-Frame" class="MathJax">V˙O2max) and steadystate fat oxidation rates (0.8–1.7 g/min) over 3 hr of running at 60% V˙O2max" style="position: relative;" tabindex="0" id="MathJax-Element-7-Frame" class="MathJax">V˙O2max (mean ± SD: 10.0 ± 1.2 km·hr−1), while adhering to a macronutrient balanced diet (20% protein, 52% carbohydrate, and 28% fat) and consuming carbohydrates during exercise (90 g/hr, 2∶1 glucose–fructose 10% wv; Rauch et al., 2018)."
     
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  17. LukeV

    LukeV More than 300 posts

    Thanks for your post. This is very new to me as while I accept that dietary fat isn't as influential on ketosis as dietary carbohydrate I wasn't aware the body would produce ketones (except briefly overnight) unless under conditions of strictly limited dietary carbohydrate. Do you mind explaining the mechanism for this (in laymen's terms)?
     
  18. ali

    ali Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    So overall calorie restriction is the health giver, not macro content. When at a healthy weight and/or below your energy needs you are burning fat to make up those needs and in so doing perhaps producing ketones at a very low level....it is not the ketone production that is driving the fat loss, it is less dietary energy.

    Producing a boatload of ketones makes no difference to overall energy balance or greater fat loss.

    ....is the short answer. If you'd like I can explain but it will be a longer answer if you are up for it....
     
  19. North Coast Miller

    North Coast Miller More than 2500 posts

    I couldn't find the reference, but have read that during conditions of long duration effort/glycogen depletion the body does make ketone bodies. It probably is not much of a contribution to fuel supply, as it takes some of the role of pyruvate and not palmitate (the primary fat burned in mitochondria) and it takes some time for ketones to be generated - a lag of a few hours.

    Some studies have shown highest levels of blood ketones a few hours after cessation of hard exercise.
     
  20. ali

    ali Quadruple-Digit Post Count

    Yes, briefly overnight...2 to 6% of energy needs from ketones and then overtime that ketone energy production is increased.

    It's perfectly normal to have low levels of ketones circulating. It doesn't mean much, really.

    The keto narrative is this: chase the ketones so you'll burn more fat.
    As we've already mentioned, some dieters who do the ketogenic diet, don't actually do THE ketogenic diet…the actual thing is really, really difficult…the actual thing is a medical intervention.

    Cut to the chase: all calorie deficit diets are keto.

    After 3 days of not eating - or on the ketogenic diet - ketone levels are 30-40%.
    Yet in a healthy person with a functioning metabolism it is perfectly normal to have ketones that provide a tiny little bit of energy.

    In a fasted state, even between meals, you will burn body fat and you may dip into low level ketogenesis and produce ketones BUT it is overall calorie intake that will affect fat loss.

    Ketone production is not just about carb restriction but liver glycogen status. And fat loss is all about calorie restriction not ketone production.

    It's an important distinction and personally I think this is where all the keto nonsense starts....this belief, this narrative built around the idea that fat burns fat, fat burning beast etc and the polarising of carb v fat as rival gangs in a West Side Story musical mash up of antagonist warring food groups fighting for superiority and gaining an edge for business and profit margins.

    Let's move away from this absurdity and be straight....it's total carbon. It doesn't matter, in what form it is in....glucose, lactate, fat, ketone, amino.

    What actually is ketogenesis and what is it for?

    It is merely a different pathway to exploit energy exchange when food is in short supply. The trigger for it is in liver mitochondria and supported by various hormone signalling strategies.

    The reason for this is to provide ketones to fuel the brain as an alternative energy source. The brain requires 20% of daily energy expenditure at rest and is fuelled in a fed state by glucose from dietary sources and from stored glucose in the liver when no dietary sources are available. Other cells containing mitochondria can use ketones too if energy is needed, that is.

    Ketogenesis is an adaptation to conserve energy. Why would a process adapted to conserve energy burn more energy, burn more fat?

    It doesn't, it just redistributes the carbon so it can be used in a different form with the overall aim of conserving glucose.
    Glucose stores are limited, fat stores not so much. Ketogenesis is a way of using fatty acid stores to obtain a molecule that can pass the blood brain barrier to conserve the precious glucose commodity.

    You just happen to be burning fat at the time. It is an efficient mechanism to conserve energy with one thing and one thing only as its mission....survival.

    There is a dance between insulin and glucagon….one high, one low. When insulin is high, hormone sensitive lipase is disinhibited, when low with glucagon high, HSL is activated. And when it is on, it signals the release of fatty acids from fat stores.

    Now….that alone will burn fat.

    So the key here is glucagon - HSL. So when you eat, if you keep insulin low, you will get to the promised hormonal land of glucagon - HSL and burn fat right?

    Yes. But over a time period if you eat more energy than you need by keeping insulin low you will still store fat and not burn it!!!!

    You can be a fat burning beast by literally burning dietary fat and store body fat…..do you see?

    So, back to glucagon - HSL. With fat released from fat stores you are now burning it aerobically.

    The brain cannot be fuelled by fatty acids, glucose is its preferred source when food is in abundance but ketones can cross the blood brain barrier, to preserve glucose when food is scarce.

    Your evolutionary biochemistry is set up for survival. At low levels of ketone production, as mentioned, from an overnight fast being 2-6 % and after 3 days this can be up to between 30-40%. And at the point of higher ketone production the brain uses ketones but it keeps using glucose. So, ketone production is a mechanism that seeks to preserve glucose. It does this for a reason.

    Certain neural cells can only use glucose. And cells that have no mitochondria use glucose anaerobically....red blood cells.

    So it is with some level of irony that if seeking ketones via a low carb diet, those ketones are protecting the stored glucose which you need for vital biological processes to keep you alive.....you can't fight biology!!

    You deny it glucose in the diet, the body makes other molecules to protect the glucose that it has.

    And at this point, your body with its sensitive alarms does not know if you will be fed in 4 hours, 16 or 3 months. It is just the start of a structured, organised biological process and as soon as it is started it is over again….the dance between insulin and glucagon begins again when you next eat.

    Hence, here, low level ketones.

    So the driver isn't really due to low insulin, it is liver glycogen status.
    And the driver for fat loss is calorie restriction.

    To summarise….ketones do not promote fat loss, they conserve glucose.

    That is what ketogenesis does.

    There is some complex biochemistry in all this but simplifying it all down…….

    In aerobic respiration, the energy molecules in the body are ATP and NADH. To obtain them, carbon in the form of glucose (short chain), fats (long chain) are catabolized…the end product before entering the mitochondria to obtain that energy…acetyl CoA and it enters with a little help from an intermediary, oxaloacetate.

    So this is going on, fed or unfed, the fate of carbon…acetyl CoA.

    Your body is monitoring blood sugar levels in a tightly controlled range.
    Remember here, glucose is feeding the brain which requires a lot of it….if liver glycogen levels start to drop….the keto process starts….

    In liver mitochondria, as liver glycogen reduces even nominally, oxaloacetate - the above mentioned intermediary of the citric acid cycle - is diverted to form new glucose - gluconeogenesis - by removing it from mitochondria into the cytoplasm where it is released into the blood to maintain blood glucose levels. (Oxaloacetate is made from pyruvate because of its importance in oxidative phosphoralation can be made from aminos and some ketones too….oxaloacetate is a carbon molecule).

    So now, in those liver mitochondria, the oxaloacetate....remember it condensates with acetyl-CoA to enter the citric acid cycle....is no longer available. Now Acetyl-CoA accumulates and with no friend available to escort it begins to breakdown to form ketone bodies. These ketones are sent from the liver into the blood. Cells containing mitochondria can take them up to reconvert them back into Acetyl-CoA. You are in low level ketosis.Think overnight fast. Even between meals perhaps. Post exercise maybe. 2-6% energy use from ketones.

    Any metabolic advantage? None....why?

    The ketones are converted to acetyl Co-A....the very same molecule that enters the citric acid cycle from glucose and fat metabolism. All you are doing is converting one molecule into another with the aim to burn the carbon it contains, depending on the pathway selected. You have though saved some glucose for your brain.

    And all this to protect the vital resource of glucose.

    Source of energy substrate catabolised for entry into mitochondria with the final atp output:

    glucose: acetyl CoA
    fatty acids: acetyl CoA
    ketone: acetyl CoA

    It's quite majestic!

    So IF.

    The health benefits of IF is autophagy. The cleaning up of dead metabolites with the result that it makes your metabolism more efficient.

    You will be burning body fat, yes. But if you eat more carbon than you need, you will store it too.

    The fact that ketones are on the scene does not mean they are causing fat loss....correlation does not imply causation. Fat loss is solely about energy and the Laws of Thermodynamics.

    Sorry about that.
     
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