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Kettlebell Are HEAVY swings worth it?

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Opiaswing

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I have 28kg up to 64kg kettlebells and seriusly considering getting rid of the 64.

I can clean it but use it predominatnly for swings (sets of 5-8 reps) but find it is quite uncomffortale and really detracts from my ability to recover.

I want to train daily and even doing minimal 64kg swings really takes so much out of me. My goal nis just overwall wellbeing and strength and fitness and to porgress with kettlebell movements. i will never jerk, snatch, etc the 64kg, so might get a 56kg so then i have the option for potentially long cycling with it rather than having a KB sitting around just waiting to be swung once a week.

I have double 40kgs for double cleans and these are so much easier to recover from than the 64kgf swings!

Can swings be too heavy? I can swing 50kg daily with no problems and feels great, but the 64kg becomes squatty and really uncofrmtable!


Here is my cleaning the monstrosity!!

Aaron on Instagram: “64kg up easy. Starting to think if I ate consistently and didn’t have certain habits I could be pretty damn strong ‍♂️ . . #kettlebell…”
 
I don't know. Heavy swings and cleans are useful naturally, but 64kg is pretty heavy. Point of diminishing returns perhaps? Perhaps @Rif or @Pavel Macek may tell you something that I can't. :)
Interesting threat, can’t wait to see what the wise guys will say.

Obviously at some point there is almost no explosion and power production. As in the video in the link below, this just does not make sense.
400-Pound Kettlebell Swings | T Nation

If you’re not limited by health or access, at some point it’s probably better to mix medium weight swings and heavy DL. Or BB power clean.

I dare say your 64kg swings are on the edge of max weight as they limit full explosion. In other words my guess is you would get the same or better effect from more poweful swings with 48 or 56kg that would float at chest level for a moment. That’s the beauty of the swing, it’s not about the max weight but max overload you generate with the movement. also adding a tape is an option, as a lighter bell won’t limit the blast from the bottom position and will allow for full acceleration with the hike pass, not forcing so much knee dipping (which has to happen with heavy weight).

But who am I to tell you as I weight just a bit more than that.
 
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I don't know. Heavy swings and cleans are useful naturally, but 64kg is pretty heavy. Point of diminishing returns perhaps? Perhaps @Rif or @Pavel Macek may tell you something that I can't. :)

Heavy swings are great - but explosive, powerful swings are better. I can do one-arm swings with 56 kg. Hell, I did few swings with 68 kg (my bodyweight) as a stunt (see the vid below), but lighter weight and power should be imho the primary focus. I think anything heavier than 48 kg is not needed for most of us.

 
Heavy Kettlebell Swings

The Gold Standard of Power

The Olympic Lifts appear to be The Gold Standard of Power. That is one of he reasons, some type of Olympic Lift Movement is a staple for the majority of sports.

Shot Putter appear to be the only group that has registered essentially the same Power Output as Olympic Lifters.

However, the Olympic Lifts are a technical movements; difficult to teach and learn for most.

Power Output Training Percentages

1) Traditional Strength Exercises: Load of 48 - 62% of your 1 Repetition Max develop power in exercises such as: Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift, etc.

2) Olympic Movements: Loads of 70 - 80% of 1 Repetition Max develop power with these ballistic movements.

3) Kettlebell Swings: Kettlebells, like Olympic Movements, are categorized as "Ballistic". That means heavier training percentages/load are required to develop power.

The Kettlebell Swing

The majority of individual employ a Kettlebell that is too light to fully maximize Power Output.

Contreras' Kettlebell Swing research demonstrated the "Heavy Kettlebell Swings" are necessary for the development of Power. Source: Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

"Heavy" defined as using a Kettlebell that is approximately half your body weight or is higher. Thus, if you weight 200 lbs, using a Kettlebell that 100 lb plus.

I've worked up to performing "Kettlebell Hungarian Core Blaster Swings" with 170 lbs. A Home Made Hungarian Core Blaster works. It's cheap and allows you to load it as light or heavy as you like.

Al Ciampa performing Kettlebell Swings with a 92kgs/202 lbs.


Can swings be too heavy? I can swing 50kg daily with no problems and feels great, but the 64kg becomes squatty and really uncofrmtable!

Too Heavy

No matter what type of Power Training the training percentage/load is too heavy...

1) If the load alters your technique.

2) If there is a dramatic drop in your power output.

Power Repetitions

Power is developed with 1 - 6 repetition per set.

At any point that your power drops, the exercise set need to be terminated; that because you are no longer training power.

Kenny Croxdale
 
Don’t know how valid it is scientifically, but I’ve always heard the efficient frontier is somewhere appx 30% body weight. Like I said, don’t know the science behind it, but that’s always felt right when I’ve used that weight fwiw.
 
Don’t know how valid it is scientifically, but I’ve always heard the efficient frontier is somewhere appx 30% body weight. Like I said, don’t know the science behind it, but that’s always felt right when I’ve used that weight fwiw.

30% of Body Weight

For most individual with normal strength, performing swings with 30% of body weight falls into Speed Training.

Speed Training

In traditional strength training exercises, Speed Training falls into the area of 10 - 40% of your 1 Repetition Max, with approximately 30% being the sweet spot.

Power Training

In traditional strength training exercises, Power Training falls into the area of 10 - 40% of your 1 Repetition Max, with approximately 30% being the sweet spot.

Ballistic Movements

With ballistic movements a much heavier load is required to produce maximal power output.

Olympic Movement are Ballistic Power Movements. Research shows that power output is optimized with 70 - 80% of a 1 Repetition Max.

The Kettlebell Swing is a ballistic movement, figuratively speaking part of the Olympic Lifting family; a greater load is needed for Power Training.

Contreras' Research

Contreras' research on Heavy Kettlebell Swings demonstrated the power output of heavy swings.

Kenny Croxdale
 
30% of Body Weight

For most individual with normal strength, performing swings with 30% of body weight falls into Speed Training.

Speed Training

In traditional strength training exercises, Speed Training falls into the area of 10 - 40% of your 1 Repetition Max, with approximately 30% being the sweet spot.

Power Training

In traditional strength training exercises, Power Training falls into the area of 10 - 40% of your 1 Repetition Max, with approximately 30% being the sweet spot.

Ballistic Movements

With ballistic movements a much heavier load is required to produce maximal power output.

Olympic Movement are Ballistic Power Movements. Research shows that power output is optimized with 70 - 80% of a 1 Repetition Max.

The Kettlebell Swing is a ballistic movement, figuratively speaking part of the Olympic Lifting family; a greater load is needed for Power Training.

Contreras' Research

Contreras' research on Heavy Kettlebell Swings demonstrated the power output of heavy swings.

Kenny Croxdale

Okay so the original issue was that once it begins to get too heavy optimal form goes out the window. So for power training is it better to move heavier weight even if proper form isn’t possible? I would say titrations would be needed to where you find your max as close to optimal power training levels while maintaining proper form or else you’re cheating the weight up anyway and while that can build strength in its own way it’s not the intention of this training I would guess.

I don’t think systems work independent of each other as much as people tend to believe. I thinks it’s more of a prioritization mechanism.
 
The dose makes the poison as the old saying goes...

Do less with the 64kg (less volume, two-arm instead of one-arm swing etc....) and you will likely find it a good training option.
But just one you don't do a "lot" of
 
So for power training is it better to move heavier weight even if proper form isn’t possible?

Maintaining Technique

There is no point in continuing a movement once technique is altered.

It turns whatever exercise that you were performing into something completely different.

You learn do perform something incorrectly.

find your max as close to optimal power training levels while maintaining proper form or else you’re cheating the weight up anyway and while that can build strength in its own way it’s not the intention of this training I would guess.

Goldilocks

Yes, you want to find the optimal load that is performed with the correct technique.

It's like the Goldilocks fable, it take some experimentation you to figure out what is just right.

Technique Development

One of the rules in the development of technique is to Stop the movement when your technique is altered.

Power Training

The same applies to Power Training. When your power drops, Stop the movement.

A decrease in power means that you are no longer training the "Super" Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber, developing Power.

Effects of velocity loss during resistance training on athletic performance, strength gains and muscle adaptations

Bauer posted this. Below are the Cliff Note that address Fast Twitch "Power" Muscle Fiber.

"...force, velocity, and power output gradually decrease as the number of repetitions increase during a set performed to failure, ..."

"Resistance training to failure is known to elicit IIX to IIA fiber transformation..."

"...decrease in the early relative RFD...positively correlated with the decrease in the area percentage of type IIX muscle fibers."

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Maintaining Technique

There is no point in continuing a movement once technique is altered.

It turns whatever exercise that you were performing into something completely different.

You learn do perform something incorrectly.



Goldilocks

Yes, you want to find the optimal load that is performed with the correct technique.

It's like the Goldilocks fable, it take some experimentation you to figure out what is just right.

Technique Development

One of the rules in the development of technique is to Stop the movement when your technique is altered.

Power Training

The same applies to Power Training. When your power drops, Stop the movement.

A decrease in power means that you are no longer training the "Super" Fast Twitch Muscle Fiber, developing Power.

Effects of velocity loss during resistance training on athletic performance, strength gains and muscle adaptations

Bauer posted this. Below are the Cliff Note that address Fast Twitch "Power" Muscle Fiber.

"...force, velocity, and power output gradually decrease as the number of repetitions increase during a set performed to failure, ..."

"Resistance training to failure is known to elicit IIX to IIA fiber transformation..."

"...decrease in the early relative RFD...positively correlated with the decrease in the area percentage of type IIX muscle fibers."

Kenny Croxdale


Right, the question of mine you quoted was rhetorical.
You were saying that only speed will be trained at a certain percentage of max and my rhetoric was that if by exceeding that comfortable and practical %of 1RM you weren’t going to achieve the goal anyway, then perhaps it’s best to titrate up to the max that you can actually handle properly.
 
You were saying that only speed will be trained at a certain percentage of max and my rhetoric was that if by exceeding that comfortable and practical %of 1RM you weren’t going to achieve the goal anyway, then perhaps it’s best to titrate up to the max that you can actually handle properly.

Training Percentages

Training percentages dictates the type of strength you are training: Limit Strength, Power, and Speed.

From 0 to 100: Know Your Percentages! | T Nation

This article provide you a good basic information on training percentages.

Fundamentals of Special Strength Training in Sport, Y. Verkhoshansky

This is a brilliant piece of work by Verkhoshansky (Father of Plyometrics) that provides more in depth information on training percentages, etc.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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somewhere appx 30% body weight.

Correcting Myself

After thinking about this, 30% of your body weight is probably a good starting point for Kettlebells Swings for Power.

I'd say that Kettlebells Swings that are 30% of your body weight fall into the upper range of Speed Training or the lower part of Power Training; dependent on your strength.

With that said, let's look at the Kettlebell Swing Power Output with heavier loads based on Contreras' research

Are Heavy Kettlebell Swings Better Than Deadlifts? | T Nation

GRF-Swings.jpg


Squat Style: With this method, you Squat, sit back and down into the movement, as you do in a Powerlifting Low Bar Squat.

This place the workload on the Quads and Glutes.

Hip Hinge Style: This is the Traditional Hip Hinge Kettlebells Swing, with a slight bend in the knees.

This places more of the workload on the Hamstrings, Glutes and Erectors, rather than the Quads.

Anecdotal Heavy Kettlebell Swing Data

Pavel Macek"

"... 56 kg. Hell, I did few swings with 68 kg (my bodyweight) as a stunt (see the vid below)"

Macek's performed Kettlebell Swings with his body weight, with one hand!



Al Ciampa performing Kettlebell Swings with a 92kgs/202 lbs

I am not sure how much Al weights. However, the 92 kg/202 lbs Kettlebells Swing is probably 80% plus of his body weight.



Kettlebells and Deadlifting: A Match Made in Heaven? | StrongFirst

Bolton weighted around 362 lbs/164.2 kg during this time.

As per Bolton on his Kettlebell Swings, "I’ve... worked all the way up to the 92kg/202 lb) kettlebell."

A 92 kg/202 lbs is 56% of his body weight.

Thanks to Pet for posting that article.

Brett Jones

"Do less with the 64kg (less volume, two-arm instead of one-arm swing etc....) and you will likely find it a good training option."

See-Saw Relationship

There is an inverse relationship between Intensity and Volume. Intensity is on one side of the See-Saw and Volume is on the other side of the See-Saw.

When Intensity goes up, Volume goes down. When Volume goes up, Intensity goes down.

Vince Gironda

Gironda was a great bodybuilder and even greater Bodybuilding Coach.

As per Gironda, "You can train hard or long but not both".

Summary

1) 30% of Body Weight For Power: This is probably a good starting load for Kettlebell Swing Power Training.

2) Heavier Kettlebell Swings: Heavier Kettlebells Swing (Kettlebell Loads that are around 50% to body weight) increase Power Output based on research and anecdotal data. Strength is one of the primary determinate factors in how heavy you go with a Kettlebell Swing.

3) Power Reps: Power is developed with low repetitions.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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Interesting threat, can’t wait to see what the wise guys will say.

Obviously at some point there is almost no explosion and power production. As in the video in the link below, this just does not make sense.
400-Pound Kettlebell Swings | T Nation

If you’re not limited by health or access, at some point it’s probably better to mix medium weight swings and heavy DL. Or BB power clean.

I dare say your 64kg swings are on the edge of max weight as they limit full explosion. In other words my guess is you would get the same or better effect from more poweful swings with 48 or 56kg that would float at chest level for a moment. That’s the beauty of the swing, it’s not about the max weight but max overload you generate with the movement. also adding a tape is an option, as a lighter bell won’t limit the blast from the bottom position and will allow for full acceleration with the hike pass, not forcing so much knee dipping (which has to happen with heavy weight).

But who am I to tell you as I weight just a bit more than that.


Heavy is relative. And I use the swing for a variety of training stimulus and overload not just for power.
Let me explain. Even though when I swing the 48, 60 or 68 kg bell it doesn't have the acceleration or height that I get when I swing the 24 or 32 kg I and still trying to accelerate the bell maximally. that builds 'strength speed' as opposed to 'speed strength' ( or power, or a higher Rate of Force Development)
That ends up translating to better power and acceleration when i do swing the lighter bells.

It's another form of overload.
When I first starting swinging the 48 it was barely getting waist high. Now I can swing it to standard height. Why? Overload over time.

The same thing applies to the 60 and 68 kg bells I swing. At first they were very low swings and I couldn't transfer them hand to hand. Now I can. Why? I got stronger and more powerful because of the overload.

it's certainly not necessary but my body likes and tolerates it well. that's the key.

My back doesn't like two hand swings of any weight but loves the one arm version

Low swings build high swings :)

when I trained as a powerlifter I used the WSB template and we had both speed days and max effort days. Both contributed to each other
The speed days taught me to maximally accelerate the bar when I was light(er) and the max effort taught me to grind AND TRY to put max force on the heavy bar.
Heavy weights don't move slow because you lift them slowly. They do so because they're close to your absolute maximum strength

68 kg One arm swing


32 kg One arm swing test for Q&D protocol. I could not produce this much power when the heaviest bell I was swinging was the 32 :)
 
Heavy is relative. And I use the swing for a variety of training stimulus and overload not just for power.
Let me explain. Even though when I swing the 48, 60 or 68 kg bell it doesn't have the acceleration or height that I get when I swing the 24 or 32 kg I and still trying to accelerate the bell maximally. that builds 'strength speed' as opposed to 'speed strength' ( or power, or a higher Rate of Force Development)
That ends up translating to better power and acceleration when i do swing the lighter bells.

It's another form of overload.
When I first starting swinging the 48 it was barely getting waist high. Now I can swing it to standard height. Why? Overload over time.

The same thing applies to the 60 and 68 kg bells I swing. At first they were very low swings and I couldn't transfer them hand to hand. Now I can. Why? I got stronger and more powerful because of the overload.

it's certainly not necessary but my body likes and tolerates it well. that's the key.

My back doesn't like two hand swings of any weight but loves the one arm version

Low swings build high swings :)

when I trained as a powerlifter I used the WSB template and we had both speed days and max effort days. Both contributed to each other
The speed days taught me to maximally accelerate the bar when I was light(er) and the max effort taught me to grind AND TRY to put max force on the heavy bar.
Heavy weights don't move slow because you lift them slowly. They do so because they're close to your absolute maximum strength

68 kg One arm swing


32 kg One arm swing test for Q&D protocol. I could not produce this much power when the heaviest bell I was swinging was the 32 :)


Interesting insights. I am gathering my thoughts and I'll shoot you a PM if that's alright with you
 
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lets keep it on the forum if it's ok with you so all can benefit

Fair enough.

Given the context of the Westside approach, I was contemplating attacking the timed standards this way

One lighter day where rests are shorter and reps are higher

A heavier day where you use 2 or more bell sizes up and keep rest longer, reps lower to really develop that explosive drive..
 
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