Are we over thinking antiglycolic training?

mprevost

More than 500 posts
@aciampa, @mprevost where do you think heavy rucking falls into this spectrum? I ruck two hours once a week and one hour on another day with a 50 lb pac ( I weigh 165). HR usually ends up around 120-125.
Hi Rif

Is this Mark Reifkind? If so, I really enjoyed your talk at the Institute for Human and Machine Cognition in Pensacola.

I love rucking personally. I am shifting more and more in that direction. I find it easier on my joints than running these days, with similar metabolic impact. I am rucking with about 45 pounds, and I find that this is equivalent to a run of the same duration, done at an easy zone 2 heart rate. I consider them to be mostly interchangeable. I would log it like a zone 2 effort run. One advantage of rucking is that people tend to spread out their base of support (less crossover gait) with a load, and they tend to load up their hips more. It can be a really nice corrective for people who have poor hip control while running, which is most people.

Mike.
 

Rif

More than 500 posts
Master Certified Instructor
@Rif
I'm sure you are younger than me. If we are using MAF as a reference then the HR you are mentioning during your rucking would be below that threshold so therefore anti-glycolytic.
My MAF rate is in the range you mention.
I'll be 60 in March . I don't use MAF but did quite a bit of ultra and triathlon training many years ago with some very high mileage so I have an idea of where I should be for my longer distances, although the heavy ruck definitely changes things.
I do this for leg strength and endurance post TKR as well as for the fantasy quest of being able to do a 12 mile ruck in 3 hours with 50 lbs as per the top end military road march tests. Doubt I can do it but it keeps me motivated :)

I usually do 3-4 interval laps during my ruck and get a higher HR ( today's last interval was 140 BPM) as opposed to the 120-125 regular laps. averaged 3 mph today for two hours so I'm a long way off.

" a back of iron and legs that never quit"
 

Rif

More than 500 posts
Master Certified Instructor
Hi Rif

Is this Mark Reifkind? If so, I really enjoyed your talk at the Institute for Human and Machine Cognition in Pensacola.

I love rucking personally. I am shifting more and more in that direction. I find it easier on my joints than running these days, with similar metabolic impact. I am rucking with about 45 pounds, and I find that this is equivalent to a run of the same duration, done at an easy zone 2 heart rate. I consider them to be mostly interchangeable. I would log it like a zone 2 effort run. One advantage of rucking is that people tend to spread out their base of support (less crossover gait) with a load, and they tend to load up their hips more. It can be a really nice corrective for people who have poor hip control while running, which is most people.

Mike.
Mike yes it is me and so glad you enjoyed my talk. I had a great time. Since my knee replacement I am not supposed to run so I've been rucking to build leg strength and endurance. I find it very satisfying and very difficult at the same time :)

As I wrote below I have it in the back of my mind to one day be able to meet the 12 mile, three hour standard with 50 lbs that I heard is the elite level for military. GoRuck actually told me they had planned to do a "ruck only" ( not pt beatdowns) at Ft Bragg but it seemed to have dropped off their charts. You never know though

If you're interested I have another lecture up on the IHMC Youtube channel on "Life after total knee replacement"

Rif
 

offwidth

More than 5000 posts
I'll be 60 in March . I don't use MAF but did quite a bit of ultra and triathlon training many years ago with some very high mileage so I have an idea of where I should be for my longer distances, although the heavy ruck definitely changes things.
I do this for leg strength and endurance post TKR as well as for the fantasy quest of being able to do a 12 mile ruck in 3 hours with 50 lbs as per the top end military road march tests. Doubt I can do it but it keeps me motivated :)

I usually do 3-4 interval laps during my ruck and get a higher HR ( today's last interval was 140 BPM) as opposed to the 120-125 regular laps. averaged 3 mph today for two hours so I'm a long way off.

" a back of iron and legs that never quit"
Well it turns out you are actually a couple of months older...:)
That 12 mile 50lb ruck sounds like a decent challenge.
 
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mprevost

More than 500 posts
Mike yes it is me and so glad you enjoyed my talk. I had a great time. Since my knee replacement I am not supposed to run so I've been rucking to build leg strength and endurance. I find it very satisfying and very difficult at the same time :)

As I wrote below I have it in the back of my mind to one day be able to meet the 12 mile, three hour standard with 50 lbs that I heard is the elite level for military. GoRuck actually told me they had planned to do a "ruck only" ( not pt beatdowns) at Ft Bragg but it seemed to have dropped off their charts. You never know though

If you're interested I have another lecture up on the IHMC Youtube channel on "Life after total knee replacement"

Rif
Hi Rif

Great. I'll check it out. I had a real revelation on rucking 20 years ago. As a new LT in the Navy I went to the Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center to do the 2 week mountain rescue course. At the time I was 29, and 5'10" and about 200 lbs. I was an OK runner but not great by any means. We did daily runs in the mountains and every day we loaded up our packs and hiked to the training area a few miles away. I found myself in the middle of the pack on runs, and I was in the middle of the pack on the rucks as well. What was the real revelation was that the people in front of me shifted significantly depending on whether we were running or rucking. For runs, the skinny little guys were in the front of the pack and the big guys behind me. For the rucks, the big guys who were falling off the back during the runs were on the front and the little guys were dropping off the back! My vantage point from the middle of the pack for both types of sessions was a great position to observe the difference.

I have always thought that the military has overemphasized running, especially for the grunts, when you almost never move unloaded in battle. If they did a 12 mile loaded ruck, instead of a timed run for their PT testing, It would be a real revelation and might change how they think about fitness.

I would love to participate in a "ruck" race. I do recall some buzz about some ruck only events by Goruck but I have not seen anything since then. I love my Goruck GR-1 pack. It is what I use for my rucks.

Ironically, when I strained my medial collateral ligament surfing, I found that rucking was much easier on my knees than running. Counterintuitively, even a slow jog with a ruck was easier on the knees than a faster unloaded jog. I think it had to do with range of motion in my case.
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Senior Certified Instructor
Ironically, when I strained my medial collateral ligament surfing, I found that rucking was much easier on my knees than running. Counterintuitively, even a slow jog with a ruck was easier on the knees than a faster unloaded jog. I think it had to do with range of motion in my case.
Very interesting observation there. Although I've never rucked, I live, depending on the route I take, between one and two miles from the grocery store and do all my shopping on foot, so I walk that distance often and my load can get up to 30-40 lbs at times. I wear a small backpack and carry two grocery bags. What's interesting (to me) is that I've often told my wife I actually feel better walking with a load than I do unloaded. Something about how the weight is distributed makes my gait better - that's my theory. My knees in particular, which are not in great shape after too many years of bad running form, just feel better walking loaded than unloaded.

I will note that I did some pretty serious Inman Mile training a couple of summers ago, too. Maybe I'm going to have to try this "rucking" thing.

Great thread, this.

-S-
 
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Rif

More than 500 posts
Master Certified Instructor
Hi Rif

Great. I'll check it out. I had a real revelation on rucking 20 years ago. As a new LT in the Navy I went to the Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center to do the 2 week mountain rescue course. At the time I was 29, and 5'10" and about 200 lbs. I was an OK runner but not great by any means. We did daily runs in the mountains and every day we loaded up our packs and hiked to the training area a few miles away. I found myself in the middle of the pack on runs, and I was in the middle of the pack on the rucks as well. What was the real revelation was that the people in front of me shifted significantly depending on whether we were running or rucking. For runs, the skinny little guys were in the front of the pack and the big guys behind me. For the rucks, the big guys who were falling off the back during the runs were on the front and the little guys were dropping off the back! My vantage point from the middle of the pack for both types of sessions was a great position to observe the difference.

I have always thought that the military has overemphasized running, especially for the grunts, when you almost never move unloaded in battle. If they did a 12 mile loaded ruck, instead of a timed run for their PT testing, It would be a real revelation and might change how they think about fitness.

I would love to participate in a "ruck" race. I do recall some buzz about some ruck only events by Goruck but I have not seen anything since then. I love my Goruck GR-1 pack. It is what I use for my rucks.

Ironically, when I strained my medial collateral ligament surfing, I found that rucking was much easier on my knees than running. Counterintuitively, even a slow jog with a ruck was easier on the knees than a faster unloaded jog. I think it had to do with range of motion in my case.
GoRuck has plenty of "fun rucks" but only up to 5k distance. I thought their Elite Ruck race was a great idea, have no idea why they shelved it.Surprised someone else hasn't come up with one. I am good to go for rucking but not the impromptu beat downs with weighted PT that they have in GoRuck Tough and Heavy.

Since it seems the weighted ruck march is the final test for many branches and units to determine fitness it's odd they don't use it as an entry point too.

Personally I'm at the point where I can't walk any faster during my fastest interval laps without breaking into a trot, which is a no-no for my bionic knee. Now the task is to string multiple laps at the 4 mph pace together.
I'm in no hurry, I'm just glad to be able to walk like a human again :)

I do find though, that after walking so much with a weighted pack, walking without one is SO easy. I can go very fast with very little effort.

My pack is a 511 Rush 72 filled with kitty litter and sandbags :) I'd like GR ruck but it's way too expensive when the 511 works so well at half the price. AND I've beaten the hell out of it for three years and it's perfect.
 

Rif

More than 500 posts
Master Certified Instructor
Very interesting observation there. Although I've never rucked, I live, depending on the route I take, between one and two miles from the grocery store and do all my shopping on foot, so I walk that distance often and my load can get up to 30-40 lbs at times. I wear a small backpack and carry two grocery bags. What's interesting (to me) is that I've often told my wife I actually feel better walking with a load than I do unloaded. Something about how the weight is distributed makes my gait better - that's my theory. My knees in particular, which are not in great shape after too many years of bad running form, just feel better walking loaded than unloaded.

I will note that I did some pretty serious Inman Mile training a couple of summers ago, too. Maybe I'm going to have to try this "rucking" thing.

Great thread, this.

-S-
You should give it a try Steve, it's a very cool way to build serious leg endurance and lung power simply. I do my laps two blocks from my house around a park where I can walk on packed sand. Still hate doing any mileage of any sort on concrete or asphalt
 

mprevost

More than 500 posts
Very interesting observation there. Although I've never rucked, I live, depending on the route I take, between one and two miles from the grocery store and do all my shopping on foot, so I walk that distance often and my load can get up to 30-40 lbs at times. I wear a small backpack and carry two grocery bags. What's interesting (to me) is that I've often told my wife I actually feel better walking with a load than I do unloaded. Something about how the weight is distributed makes my gait better - that's my theory. My knees in particular, which are not in great shape after too many years of bad running form, just feel better walking loaded than unloaded.

I will note that I did some pretty serious Inman Mile training a couple of summers ago, too. Maybe I'm going to have to try this "rucking" thing.

Great thread, this.

-S-
Yes, gait definitely changes with a load. Next time you do this take a look at your foot placement. You will find that the heavier your load, the wider your foot placement. This is good because most people have too narrow a foot placement when they run, leading to run crossover gait. This can cause knee and hip pain. Some of these same people can ruck with no problem because it improves their gait. Interestingly, after observing gait hundreds of times during VO2 max tests on treadmills, I noticed that almost everyone has better gait at faster speeds. It probably explains the benefits of doing strides for runners. I think that strides (like sprints) and rucks might both be nice correctives for distance runners.

Mike
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Senior Certified Instructor
I noticed that almost everyone has better gait at faster speeds. It probably explains the benefits of doing strides for runners. I think that strides (like sprints) and rucks might both be nice correctives for distance runners.
When I was a runner and had to take a break due to injury, I learned to come back by running half-miles, twice a day. I'd then work gradually back into slower paces and longer distances.

Now I only run when chasing or being chased. :)

-S-
 

Rif

More than 500 posts
Master Certified Instructor
When I was a runner and had to take a break due to injury, I learned to come back by running half-miles, twice a day. I'd then work gradually back into slower paces and longer distances.

Now I only run when chasing or being chased. :)

-S-
It's important to keep the feet strong as well, especially under higher forces like sprinting ( being chased :) ) If you haven't done it in ages it's easy to mess up the small bones in the feet, which take forever to heal
 

kiwipete

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
Hi Al
True, but the polarized model is ideal for high volume athletes. Those who do not train with a high volume of aerobic exercise should optimally choose a different approach. For non high volume endurance athletes, the threshold model is more appropriate. The threshold model is simply a greater distribution of volume in zone 4. It could be more like a 50/50 mix or even a 60/40 mix (zone 4/zone 2). If you are only going to do a little bit of aerobic exercise, most of it should be done at a vigorous intensity. If you are going to do high volume, most needs to be done at a lower intensity. If you are going to do low volume, more needs to be done at a higher intensity, in order to achieve overload. Simple. My main point is that if you decrease volume and intensity, you don't get more fit.

Mike
How about Strongfirst? Tactical Endurance Challenge (TEC) to go along with the TSC?
That would be outstanding! Whilst we're in dream land...what events would you put in it? :)
 

pet'

More than 5000 posts
Hello,

When rucking, shoe choice is crucial : they have to be light enough to save energy. Plus, light shoes prevent a "throw effect" on each pace (kinetic energy) than can damage your knee on the long term. Besides, they have to maintain your ankle, above all if you ruck on sand / rocks / rural ways.

A good backpack placement is also important.

Trying to maintain a regular rythm helps a lot. From my experience, I find far easier to hike and ruck all day long than visit a museum (even if I enjoy museums too !)

Otherwise, feet massage is significant (IMO), not necessarily with a foam roller.

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

mprevost

More than 500 posts
It's important to keep the feet strong as well, especially under higher forces like sprinting ( being chased :) ) If you haven't done it in ages it's easy to mess up the small bones in the feet, which take forever to heal
Over the years (about 6 years now) I have transitioned slowly (really slowly) to more and more minimal shoes for daily wear and also for runs/rucks. I am at the point now that all of my runs/rucks are done in Shamma Sandals. They have virtually no padding or support. It is as close to being barefoot as you can get. But my feet are very strong. This was not a 6 month transition, but rather, a 6 year transition. About 9 years ago I suffered a 2 year bout of plantar fasciitis. It was a really bad case. So really it has been a 9 year effort to strengthen my feet.

But I have to admit I am a bit unconventional and very minimal. I also sleep on the floor with no mattress ; )
 

Rif

More than 500 posts
Master Certified Instructor
I would keep it simple. 12 mile ruck with 50lbs for males and 30lbs for females. All you would need is a couple of scales at the start and finish lines to weigh the rucks.
Agreed. That's the event GoRuck had planned. Just a pure heavy ruck competition
 
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