Are we over thinking antiglycolic training?

Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)

Harald Motz

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
an article by Andrew Read I think it fits to the topic:
Talking Tabata - readpt.com

From my little growing experience:
I am a grateful member of a training group around Al Ciampa.
One year of A+A swings and snatches under my belt. Mid August 2016 I started aerobic locomotion (after about 5 years or so). In a nutshell I ran and rowed around 3-5 hours a week, average hr 125-135bpm. From Aug to Dec I lost 10kg bodyweight, lots of fat around my midsection.
I remember, when I did endurance in the past, after a run or longer bike ride, I was hungry, and thus I ate. Nowadays, when I do my endurance I seem not want to replenish in calories, what I have "burned".
I feel very good about it, and I am convinced, that basic endurance training has astonishing and appreciable side effects: more energy, being more modest, composure, better recovery, getting rid of fat by using more fat while exercising and at rest. I move better, cause my body is lighter. I got interested in mobility and stretching again. It was the best thing training wise, that I have been incorporating last year.
 

pet'

Level 8 Valued Member
Hello,

In a nutshell I ran and rowed around 3-5 hours a week, average hr 125-135bpm. From Aug to Dec I lost 10kg bodyweight, lots of fat around my midsection.
I remember, when I did endurance in the past, after a run or longer bike ride
With A+A swings and snatches you are currently spending 3 to 5 hours a week of training. How much did you use for your previous "endurance training" ?

Does this kind of "long" training interfere in you strength training ?

Kind regards,

Pet'
 

Steve Freides

Staff
Senior Certified Instructor
Elite Certified Instructor
@Harald Motz, you make good points but I'd like to tease this out a little more.

Specifically, a lot of people run, row, swing/snatch to improve body composition and, specifically, to lose fat. Body composition isn't my issue - I can lose the little bit of fat I have easily and at will, and I have never wanted to be bodybuilder lean. I am more concerned with the other health aspects.

-S-
 

Harald Motz

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
With A+A swings and snatches you are currently spending 3 to 5 hours a week of training. How much did you use for your previous "endurance training" ?
these numbers refer to my endurance/locomotion activity.

Does this kind of "long" training interfere in you strength training ?
not at all, as I kept/keep my strength training minimal. ZercherSquats as my squat/hinge, HandstandPushup as my main press. Regarding the HSPU, paradox as it sounds, endurance made me stronger, regarding that I lost weight, it is not paradox at all. The whole last week, I made friends with the Get up again. Looking around my thumb, I can say, that I did almost no GU training for about a year. I grabbed my 50kg(@83kg bw, 60%) and was pleased, that it was quite solid (for a little challenge, I did 10 in under 10 min), and accumulated a lot of nice reps over the last seven days.

Specifically, a lot of people run, row, swing/snatch to improve body composition and, specifically, to lose fat.
I did not aim for that, my outcomes were/are the effect.

I am more concerned with the other health aspects.
I am not concerned about the health benefits either, as I know and feel thus experiencing that they are real.
 

Al Ciampa

Level 8 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
This thread is headed around the world and back again; I don't know what to discuss...

I personally adhere mostly to moderate intensity, longer duration S&C training; with some higher intensity, shorter volume work. I don't purposefully follow an 80/20 rule; but just going by feel, the end result is in the ballpark. I follow my ventilation more than anything on both runs and KB ballistic recovery periods. Hikes are self-correcting, and I usually trot here and there to get my HR up; and because walking speeds are just too slow for my brain to digest the environmental sensations... sometimes. And, I don't use a hammer to drive a screw... I "mostly" locomote (preferably in nature) for aerobic/slow fiber capacity; and I toss KBs over my head for anaerobic/fast fiber capacity.

At 46, I have completely left all the performance-based goals behind me; I train to experience my body and the environment, and to, as I always say, make sure that I can wipe my a#@ on my last day; be it today, tomorrow, or some other time.
 

Dave Johnson

Level 2 Valued Member
This thread is headed around the world and back again; I don't know what to discuss...
:confused: I'm with you Al on this thread. But in a different way. You (and many others) understand the thread from the beginning and are able to intelligently contribute. I didn't even begin to understand this thread from the first post. Gives me a good feeling to know that we have so many technical wiz-bangs in the community. If you were all like me it would suck. :) :D
 

kiwipete

Level 7 Valued Member
I would keep it simple. 12 mile ruck with 50lbs for males and 30lbs for females. All you would need is a couple of scales at the start and finish lines to weigh the rucks.
Like it. Some how my mind expected you to suggest a multi event ...but hey marching is a great test of many things
 

offwidth

Level 9 Valued Member
I agree 12 miles 50/30 would be a good challenge. You would need a flat course to guarantee consistency, because once you throw in any significant amount of hills or rough terrain all bets are off...
 

Frank_IT

Level 4 Valued Member
But I have to admit I am a bit unconventional and very minimal. I also sleep on the floor with no mattress ; )
Hi, Mr. Prevost, and sorry to bring this up months after you wrote this post.

I noticed it at the time and I was very curious, I've seen it again and it sparkled my interest again.

I obviously don't want to go into your private life, but since I'm also training under Al, who preaches a great principal of healt and fitness, and you are an unvaluable source of informations for me, I would like to know which are the benefits or sleeping on a hard floor with no mattress, please.

I ask here because may be someone else would be interested, I know I am!

If you think this is a PM question, please feel free to send one. If you think this is a "mind your own business" question, please feel free to tell! :)
 

Frank_IT

Level 4 Valued Member
It was amazingly easy to adapt to sleeping on the floor. Now I can sleep anywhere. The main benefit is that I can live with less stuff. Everything I own (plus my wife's stuff) fits in my Prius. I also have no furniture. It keeps me from sitting for long periods of time.
I've read the post Steve linked to and the discussion that started. Your and other's way of living is fascinating. :)

I see you haven't got your blog anymore and it's a pity: personally, I would have liked to read through it for many reasons.

You're a great value for the Forum, Mr. Prevost. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
 

mprevost

Level 6 Valued Member
I've read the post Steve linked to and the discussion that started. Your and other's way of living is fascinating. :)

I see you haven't got your blog anymore and it's a pity: personally, I would have liked to read through it for many reasons.

You're a great value for the Forum, Mr. Prevost. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Thank you Frank. I appreciate that. I took down the blog because it was focused mainly on tactical athlete training. I have certainly trained many tactical athletes but I am not and have never been a tactical athlete myself so there always seemed to be some level of credibility missing even though I thought the information was solid. I put it up initially to share the work I was doing and what I was learning by training athletes at the Naval Academy. Perhaps I should have left it up even though I was not maintaining it any more. I still have most of the content in a book I never finished on training tactical athletes.
 

kiwipete

Level 7 Valued Member
Thank you Frank. I appreciate that. I took down the blog because it was focused mainly on tactical athlete training. I have certainly trained many tactical athletes but I am not and have never been a tactical athlete myself so there always seemed to be some level of credibility missing even though I thought the information was solid. I put it up initially to share the work I was doing and what I was learning by training athletes at the Naval Academy. Perhaps I should have left it up even though I was not maintaining it any more. I still have most of the content in a book I never finished on training tactical athletes.
@mprevost - If you were getting good results over a long period of time, with a variety of operators I think this would speak for itself... whether or not you were once one yourself.

Whether you write a book, a blog or similar I think they'll be plenty of people wanting to learn more from you (including myself)

Please keep us posted about the book release ;-)
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
I third all of this.

I am particularly interested in any studies that have ID'd the relative durability of adaptive changes. Eg, if capillary density is, at a minimum proportional in exercised muscle tissue, when de-training does the capillary density stay proportional or does it degrade faster than cross sectional size or density. From some of the rudimentary textbooks, they claim aerobic adaptations are lost much faster than strength and even size adaptations from resistance training. Where do the two intersect?

Are there any studies detailing the capillary density of various ratios of volume/intensity/duration with any degree of accuracy across a sample of trained and untrained individuals?

@mprevost - If you were getting good results over a long period of time, with a variety of operators I think this would speak for itself... whether or not you were once one yourself.
100%. your actual tactical background is irrelevant. Many very solid former competitive martial artists cannot teach worth a darn - the quality of your clients' fitness (the ones that apply themselves anyway) is what determines your credibility as a trainer. Everything else is a side-note, you aren't there to share stories.

I'd like a copy of that book too.
 

North Coast Miller

Level 7 Valued Member
Hello all,

I read this article and it made me wonder, is avoiding glycolic training necessary as long as we are not over training?

I admit I am new to antiglycolic training and have been kind of naturally training that way for ages. Being new to the concept, I am probably missing something.

Here is the article:
Conditioning: You're Doing It Wrong - Juggernaut

Thoughts? It was mainly the graphs and descriptions that made me think avoiding glycolic training might be unnecessary as long as we are not over training.

This response is ONLY relative to the OP and referenced study.

I finally read through the actual study and not just the linked blog. While very interesting I am still not seeing anything I wouldn't have expected to a large extent. The max exertion times of 30s wouldn't be expected to rely on Glycolytic pathways.

The surprise is how much the aerobic pathway contributed relative to alactic, but again this isn't really a big surprise. It would be nice to see this test done with a couple of different lifting strategies - or at least add some grinds or long cycle.

If the intervals had been run out to 90 or 120 seconds then I'd have been surprised to see such a light glycolytic contribution.

As another consideration, when training higher strength periodization my sets of five still tend to run over 10s per - closer to 30s total time under load. As has been mentioned already, managing the rest periods is an important aspect to clearing glycolytic metabolites/waste, even if training anti-glycolytic protocol.
 

Bill Been

Level 6 Valued Member
Dr. Prevost,
Thank you for summarizing the current state of the scientific literature in this area.

I have two questions:

Is there evidence to support the notion that glycolytic training damages mitochondria in any cells or in muscle cells specifically, or in cardiac muscle cells very specifically?

Is there evidence to support the notion that glycolytic training and the creation of metabolic byproducts like "lactic acid" results in anything other than a temporary downward change in blood pH? In other words, does glycolytic training make you "acidic"?
 
Status
Closed Thread. (Continue Discussion of This Topic by Starting a New Thread.)
Top Bottom