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Other/Mixed Asking for impossible advice - optimizing endurance and explosiveness

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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Food for thought - instead of chasing 2 rabbits and missing both, there may well be a way of killing 2 birds with one light stone...

we have always advocated snatching as explosively as possible. However, we did not switch to lighter bells and thus maximized the overspeed eccentric overload effect until Kenneth Jay’s unexpected, penicillin-like discovery. Rif doing overspeed kettlebell snatches. The Danish researcher had set out to develop the most effective protocol for cardiovascular training. Having done his research, the Dane of Pain developed his VO2 max protocol using 16-kg kettlebells. Imagine his surprise when the subjects saw a dramatic increase in their vertical jump! As stated by Master RKC Mark Reifkind, who has been the most vocal proponent of going lighter and faster in kettlebell snatches, Kenneth has given us the “permission to go light.” A much-needed permission, given the heavy lifting backgrounds of many of our Comrades. Because the kettlebell travels a greater distance in the snatch than in the swing and has a chance to accumulate incredible kinetic energy, it has to be very light for the girevik to feel safe to accelerate it on the way down. If the bell is too heavy, he will not be giving it an overspeed eccentric and will miss out on the training effects of this amazing modality. A 16 kg hits the spot for most trained men. A 24 kg is enough for very strong men. I believe one more reason that performing overspeed eccentric snatches with a light kettlebell is so effective in promoting explosiveness is nervous system disinhibition. Normally, you are subconsciously holding back and not expressing all your power out of a preprogrammed fear of injury. After having performed a number of fast snatches safely, you ease off on the brakes and really let it rip. But this will only happen if the bell is very light.​

John, Dan. Easy Strength: How to Get a Lot Stronger Than Your Competition-And Dominate in Your Sport (pp. 332-334). DD Publications. Kindle Edition.
Appreciate all the advice and insights from everybody. This is particularly intriguing - I’m guessing it wouldn’t work the same way with a lightly loaded Oly bar because of the accelerated eccentric lowering phase followed by the rapid reverse of direction (versus the eccentric lowering of the bar would act different). I have several RKB kettlebells already and I think my lightest is around that range. Excited to try this (and others’ recommendations above)!
 
50 - 100 mile (and longer) running events are a separate thing altogether....
(especially if one wants to make a good showing and not have it be some sort of death march)
For me, it’s more the death march variety. 50k I’ll shoot for top 50% overall and 50mi+ the goal becomes merely finishing.
 
A fast twitch guy that likes to run long, nice. Hope your nutrition,sleep,stress management, and auto-regulation are on point.
Wave the following: BB or KB, some heavy days, some fast/power days, running, 80 % MAF, 20 % HIIT, volleyball practice.
Probably what you are already doing.
My mind and spirit like to run long, but my body does not like it - Ha! And it has to be backcountry single track trail systems or it’s a no-go from the start. Nutrition and fueling have been my kryptonite resulting in groin cramping and calf cramping later in the races. Thanks for the help!
 
There is a division between power and endurance certainly but it needn't be binary for generalism. It only really matters for specialism and where you want to aim, or the competition level you covet.

You can see this at a marathon event. A muscle bound strong guy will not get near an elite distance runner but can still eek out a good performance. My nephew runs a 2.45 marathon. Strong as an ox. Squash player. Former marine. Explosive and endurant.
For him to improve at marathons he needed to lose muscle mass and didn't want to be weaker. Something has to give, right?
And at some point. Where is that point critical for you?

For a lot of us a big GPP base can be pretty wide, edging into both power and endurance ends. The figurative see-saw is a nice analogy....

if at both ends of a see-saw there is a zone to sit on and a handle to hold on to...a GPP base spreads out from the middle but there is a limit to the length and spread. Get to the handles of both sides. If you shift into a seat at either end, the other end suffers. So to optimise your endurance, power suffers. To optimise power, endurance suffers. But it is not binary. It is ok to be pretty good at both and it is entirely possible physiologically.

You can't have it all but you can have most of it. Be a decathlete, rather than a specialist, a box to box midfielder (soccer) or, er, a volleyball player.

S&S, volleyball, easy runs and when the time comes, add some mileage to your running, head down, do the thing, finish.

As someone once said, performance is 90% mental the other half is physical.
That someone was famed former Yankees catcher and manager Yogi Berra, and it’s spot on because that’s my profession - Ha! High performance psychology professional within professional baseball. What a surprisingly fitting quote at the end of your guidance! Thanks for the thoughts and you all are giving me hope that I can have most of it as a well-programmed and disciplined generalist.
 
First time visitor, first time poster. I’m at a loss for how to do this, and this group seems versatile and knowledgable enough that it might be able to provide resources and guidance to help me crack this code...

BLUF: I want to jump really high and run really far. I have no idea how to do this!

Background: I was a competitive doubles volleyball player for about 15 years. Jumping high was key, especially for me being a shorter guy. Then, I got bit by the trail ultrarunning bug and fascinated by the idea of how far I could run before I’d break. So, over the past 10+ years, I’ve done numerous 50k trail races and several 50mi trail races while giving up volleyball completely.

Current: I want to start competing again in higher level amateur beach volleyball events and still run long distance events. I want to introduce and expose my 8-year old daughter to the volleyball scene and hopefully ignite a spark for the sport without being “that parent.” But I can’t jump anymore. And I still want to maintain enough muscular endurance and joint/tendon/muscle durability to tackle the occasional 50k trail run and to run 60-90 minutes regularly in the backcountry for peace of mind. How do I train to balance both? I have my CSCS credential and so I have a decent working knowledge of training, and I fully understand that by training for one, I’m going ruin the other. But I’m lost as to whether there’s a compromise way of training where you can be decent at both?

Note: I’m probably wired more for strength and power sports. I respond very well to explosive training and strength work. I respond terribly to endurance training and I suffer heavily during the longer 50mi events. So, perhaps that filters into this equation?

Any ideas, suggestions, references, articles, etc?

Thanks in advance for any guidance this group can provide - I’m going to go further search your site now and hopefully fall into some fun and meaningful rabbit holes!
You can certainly train for both and progress at both.

A lot of people like to use the 2 rabbits metaphor. Me personally I'd rather set up snares around rabbits holes and catch numerous rabbits whils I go off and do other work. A much better metaphor and one more fitting of conjugate style training.

You do not have to settle for one or the other.

My advice is 2 days a week squats super setted with box jumps.

Maintain your running program as is. Make your hard training days REALLY HARD and your easy days VERY EASY.

Keep your strength training and endurance training at least 4 hours apart.

Done and it didn't take a lot of additional work. Sure you will be sore at first, you are adding a new stimulus and that will always make you sore. As well as hit your recovery demand hard too.

Your body will adapt and you will see progress in both again.
 
Sure you will be sore at first, you are adding a new stimulus and that will always make you sore.
Soreness

Soreness occurs primarily when a new exercise is performed with a load that is too much.

it is counter productive to training.

"Repeated Bout Effect"

"In essence, the repeated bout effect describes how your body gets used to the muscle-damaging response produced by strength training."

The key to ensuring little to no soreness occurs is start the new exercise off with a very light load and progressively increase it over the following weeks. In other words, it is more effective to start of with a very light load rather than choosing the wrong load; when many individual do.

By starting off with a very light load, individual are able to make faster progress. Soreness is akin to a "Speed Bump" in the road; requiring individual to slow down. as...

"Research consistently shows that being sore suppresses training performance. One 2017 study found that a high degree of muscle damage directly interferes with strength performance and reduces joint range of motion
 
Soreness

Soreness occurs primarily when a new exercise is performed with a load that is too much.

it is counter productive to training.

"Repeated Bout Effect"

"In essence, the repeated bout effect describes how your body gets used to the muscle-damaging response produced by strength training."

The key to ensuring little to no soreness occurs is start the new exercise off with a very light load and progressively increase it over the following weeks. In other words, it is more effective to start of with a very light load rather than choosing the wrong load; when many individual do.

By starting off with a very light load, individual are able to make faster progress. Soreness is akin to a "Speed Bump" in the road; requiring individual to slow down. as...

"Research consistently shows that being sore suppresses training performance. One 2017 study found that a high degree of muscle damage directly interferes with strength performance and reduces joint range of motion
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
Yes... this much is true.

I find that many of the people I ride / run / climb with make their easy days way too hard, and their hard days way too easy.
100% the last thing you want to do is fall into that deadzone that moderate intensity breeds. This goes back to the 80/20 principle which works for so many disciplines.

It also allows for really well planned recovery management from those brutally hard days.
 
@bernieholliday ...yeah, Berra's quote is magnificent ?

You'll know more than most how mental preparation affects performance.

Obviously more applicable to pro athletes but for recreational athletes too and in a sense more so.
 
Sure you will be sore at first, you are adding a new stimulus and that will always make you sore. As well as hit your recovery demand hard too.

Your body will adapt and you will see progress in both again.
Two cents:

I forget what, but I saw something else on the forum recently which spurred the following train of thought:

Back when I was a follower of the Gymnasticbodies style of programming/training, I read a lot of Christopher Sommer's ideas on progressive overload. He was a fan of "steady state cycling," which, in essence, meant that you start with something that is pretty hard, and you keep doing the exact same volume/frequency/intensity until it becomes easy. Then you make a "jump" to a new intensity and repeat. Each jump, as I understand it can be at micro/meso levels, for example:

Adding reps once it becomes easy, then adding sets....
Followed by increasing the intensity after doing both of those....

Thus, it winds up being a really long form of periodization. The key is to allow oneself the periods where things feel easy between adding to a training variable. Sort of a "natural deload." Sort of...

Pavel has spoken of this type of training (I believe on the JRE podcast) saying that it delivers very solid, long-lasting gains, because the body has much more time to develop soft tissue and whatnot. In terms of gymnastics programming, this is important to avoid joint problems.

That was a long way of saying that "as long as you aren't constantly sore throughout your cycle, you will see progress." So, at least in theory, as long as the OP gets over that inital "soreness hump" within a week or two AT MOST of a new program/cycle, he should be okay. But if he is sore every week of the cycle, it will be too much.

A final word, each "cycle" of that style of training can be quite long, lasting several months. It's not something to be in a hurry during.
 
You can certainly train for both and progress at both.

A lot of people like to use the 2 rabbits metaphor. Me personally I'd rather set up snares around rabbits holes and catch numerous rabbits whils I go off and do other work. A much better metaphor and one more fitting of conjugate style training.

You do not have to settle for one or the other.

My advice is 2 days a week squats super setted with box jumps.

Maintain your running program as is. Make your hard training days REALLY HARD and your easy days VERY EASY.

Keep your strength training and endurance training at least 4 hours apart.

Done and it didn't take a lot of additional work. Sure you will be sore at first, you are adding a new stimulus and that will always make you sore. As well as hit your recovery demand hard too.

Your body will adapt and you will see progress in both again.
Thanks - This is really prescriptive and clear. I’m excited to start putting it all into practice!
 
Yes... this much is true.

I find that many of the people I ride / run / climb with make their easy days way too hard, and their hard days way too easy.
My Garmin Fenix would agree. I go a little too hard on a light day and it labels my efforts as “unproductive” and I go a little too easy on a hard day and Garmin provides me the same “unproductive“ workout label. What a techno-slap in the face!?!? Shut up Garmin. But you’re totally right - Thanks!
 
Soreness

Soreness occurs primarily when a new exercise is performed with a load that is too much.

it is counter productive to training.

"Repeated Bout Effect"

"In essence, the repeated bout effect describes how your body gets used to the muscle-damaging response produced by strength training."

The key to ensuring little to no soreness occurs is start the new exercise off with a very light load and progressively increase it over the following weeks. In other words, it is more effective to start of with a very light load rather than choosing the wrong load; when many individual do.

By starting off with a very light load, individual are able to make faster progress. Soreness is akin to a "Speed Bump" in the road; requiring individual to slow down. as...

"Research consistently shows that being sore suppresses training performance. One 2017 study found that a high degree of muscle damage directly interferes with strength performance and reduces joint range of motion
Thanks! If there’s one thing I’ve learned at 47 with currently sore hips and chronic plantar fascia pain is that my body is smarter than me, as long as I listen to it. This was a major mistake I made until recently when my body said “no more” and shut me down for days and weeks.
 
@bernieholliday ...yeah, Berra's quote is magnificent ?

You'll know more than most how mental preparation affects performance.

Obviously more applicable to pro athletes but for recreational athletes too and in a sense more so.
I had an old grad school buddy ask me to do his podcast and he asked me about the body’s governor, and I was like “what?” But after some research, I realized that, yes, our body is designed to protect us from over-strain, over-exert, and over-extend, and speaking from strictly a head and heart perspective, it seems the best in the world teach themselves how to ride the redline in training and competition, and to actually push slightly into the red zone without blowing the engine in competition. I invited ultrarunning legend David Horton to speak with our rookies one fall, and he said “there’s no such thing as overtraining. And the world’s best train on the verge of injury. It’s the only way you learn where your limits lie.” The physically trained sport scientist within me was like “eek!” And the mentally trained sport scientist within me was like “Hell yeah!”
 
Two cents:

I forget what, but I saw something else on the forum recently which spurred the following train of thought:

Back when I was a follower of the Gymnasticbodies style of programming/training, I read a lot of Christopher Sommer's ideas on progressive overload. He was a fan of "steady state cycling," which, in essence, meant that you start with something that is pretty hard, and you keep doing the exact same volume/frequency/intensity until it becomes easy. Then you make a "jump" to a new intensity and repeat. Each jump, as I understand it can be at micro/meso levels, for example:

Adding reps once it becomes easy, then adding sets....
Followed by increasing the intensity after doing both of those....

Thus, it winds up being a really long form of periodization. The key is to allow oneself the periods where things feel easy between adding to a training variable. Sort of a "natural deload." Sort of...

Pavel has spoken of this type of training (I believe on the JRE podcast) saying that it delivers very solid, long-lasting gains, because the body has much more time to develop soft tissue and whatnot. In terms of gymnastics programming, this is important to avoid joint problems.

That was a long way of saying that "as long as you aren't constantly sore throughout your cycle, you will see progress." So, at least in theory, as long as the OP gets over that inital "soreness hump" within a week or two AT MOST of a new program/cycle, he should be okay. But if he is sore every week of the cycle, it will be too much.

A final word, each "cycle" of that style of training can be quite long, lasting several months. It's not something to be in a hurry during.
Thanks - This is interesting, and I find myself realizing that when I think I’m doing it right, I’m muscle sore (soft tissue). When I start speeding up and moving too soon and being recklessly progressive in my programming, I become joint sore. And that’s where I’ve had my issues. So, this is helpful to pursue some early-on muscle soreness without falling into the trap of chronic joint soreness.
 
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