Barbell Autoregulation
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I'd like to, what tool are you using?
donbdc
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I am using the velocity training tool from squat and science. It was recommended by Chris Duffin.
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
The olympic lifters at the Australian Institute of Sport have been using velocity instruments, wire attachments, for years and years. Lately I have seen them also using little Fitbit-looking things attached to the bar. Measuring velocity seems a staple of training for those guys but I've never seen powerlifters do it ever. Is the advantage specific to the Olympic lifts
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Australian Velocity Training
Dr Daniel Baker,President of the Australia Strength and Conditioning Association, is one of the leading researchers in the area. Baker utilizes it in training his athletes.
Velocity Measurement Devices
I have a fairly inexpensive device that attached to the bar that measure Power Output/Velocity, "Power Factor".
I equated it to purchasing a inexpensive weight scale that is consistent and provides you with approximately what your body weight is. It will measure your body weight within let's say two pound of what a medical weight scale would.
Thus, the "Power Factor" that I have gives me an idea of what Percentage of my 1 Repetition Max produces the greatest Power Output, essentially Velocity, for me in each lift.
Powerlifting
Measuring Power Output/Velocity works for the Powerlifts to some extent.
However, the "Power Factor" simply reinforced what I could feel when preforming explosive movements and see in training others.
The Foundation of Power/Velocity
The foundation of the amount of Power/Velocity that you can display and produce is built on Limit Strength, 1 Repetition Max.
Some who can Deadlift 500 lbs is going pull a 300 lb Deadlift faster than a lifter who Deadlift is 400 lbs. Granted when Power/Velocity Training incorporated into your training helps.
Which bring us to...
How Fast A Lifter Pulls/Pushes The Weight
In lifting a weight yourself or watching another lifter, the Speed/Velocity of how fast you feel it move or you watch them move it give you an idea of where their 1 Repetition Max might be.
The more you feel it with your lifting and see it with other lifters, the better you get with estimating how much you or another lifter has left in the tank.
Car Analogy
It similar to driving a car when the light ahead turns red. Based on your experience with driving, you learn how much pressure to apply to the brakes based how far your are from the red light.
Kenny Croxdale
donbdc
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Bill Been
Level 5 Valued Member
I know of a few powerlifters who have used bar speed measurements. Mike Tuchscherer has a great deal of data on the reliability of bar speed as a predictor (or a "verifier", I'm not sure which would be a better description) of RPE. Tuchscherer uses a very sophisticated RPE based paradigm for his (very advanced) lifters and has used Tendo units early on to try to correlate a lifter's RPE assessment ("that was RPE 8") with bar speed. Unfortunately, 600lb squatters don't necessarily move their 315lb warmup sets any faster than 345lb squatters, and they don't move them as fast as they can because that speed effort would make it a work set, not a warmup set. So the lifter might say "that was RPE 6" the bar speed might be really slow. Additionally, slow bar speed in warmups or early work sets can overlay with and validate a lifter's bad mood, leading to nocebo effect or self-fulfilling prophecy. And sometimes a work set feels a hundred pounds heavier than it is making you seriously doubt the thing is going back up on Rep Last - then you look at the bar speed and it flew up. We're peculiar critters all things considered.
I find these sorts of approaches fascinating as they represent different approaches to accumulating and managing the stress necessary to disrupt homeostasis and create an adaptive response while not allowing accumulated fatigue to interfere with consistency and progress. The good news is that such precisely controlled programs are not necessary or beneficial for Novices and the vast majority of people are Novices.
I find these sorts of approaches fascinating as they represent different approaches to accumulating and managing the stress necessary to disrupt homeostasis and create an adaptive response while not allowing accumulated fatigue to interfere with consistency and progress. The good news is that such precisely controlled programs are not necessary or beneficial for Novices and the vast majority of people are Novices.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
RPE has some similarities to Velocity, as a means of measuring and estimating Max Efforts; be it in a 1 or 5 RM.
"Compensatory Acceleration"
Dr Fred Hatfield
No matter how light or heavy the weight, **"The Intent" should be on pushing/pulling the weight as fast as you can. Doing so, engages the Fast Twitch Type IIa and "Super" Fast Type IIb/x Muscle Fiber and programs Central Nervous to activate a greater number of Motor Units.
**Hatfield noted that no matter how heavy the load, that the concentric contraction should be moving the weight as fast as possible.
**Research by Dr Jeff McBride research re-emphasized Hatfield's "Compensatory Acceleration Principle".
As per McBride, even with 1RM that move slowly, "The Intent" should be on violently driving the concentric contraction as hard and fast in the concentric contraction.
Thus, a 600 lb Squatter should definitively demonstrate substantially greater power in a 315 lb Squat than a lifter who 1RM is 345 lbs.
Warm Up Sets
Performing Warm Up Sets via Compensatory Acceleration means the number of Repetition Per Set needs be minimal.
That due in part so that a Warm Up Set is not turned in to a Workout, as you noted.
Secondly, research has demonstrated that as the number of repetition increases, power decreases.
The Rep Bible | T Nation
Chris Thibaudeau, Canadian Strength Coach, does a nice job of breaking down Compensatory Accelaration.
Pros of CAT
- This rep style maximizes peak force production at any given load, so it makes the muscles stronger.
- By working on acceleration you'll also develop more power/explosiveness than if you used a more "regular" lifting style, which is good if you're an athlete trying to be explosive.
- By attempting to move as fast as possible you maximize fast-twitch motor unit recruitment. Over time you'll become more efficient at recruiting those fibers, which will obviously help you gain more strength, size, and power in the future.
- By using the stretch reflex at the turnaround point, you become more efficient at using it in muscle actions, which can help you in athletic activities that require the use of the stretch reflex.
Shahaf Levin
Level 5 Valued Member
At Westside Barbell they measure bar velocity using a Tendo unit, although not on daily basis. In the Westside Barbell Book of Methods Louie Simmons speaks about bar velocity quite allot.
I will sound a dissenting voice on the subject of bar speed. Staying tight and moving fast is difficult for less than advanced lifters, and trying for speed often compromises form. IMHO, focus on staying tight at least until you reach a certain level of skill and weights, then consider adding speed to the mix. Safety first.
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Shahaf Levin
Level 5 Valued Member
+1 for that.
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I'm not sure I agree. Are you concerned that beginning lifters get the wrong idea and try to emphasize speed over form?
In my "less than advanced" lifting career, I have found speed to be of paramount importance. If I have a single cue on my mind when I grip the bar, it is speed. Do it fast. With lighter weights it is faster, with heavier weights slower, but the effort is the same. The lighter weights come up high easier with the speed, and the heaviest weights wouldn't be possible without it. In my book, speed and form aren't at odds; speed is an integral part of form. Of course, the correct technique may be learned in parts, and maybe the speed aspect is one of the last to come, but it is an important one nonetheless.
@Antti, I suffered a pretty severe back injury 20 years ago (bed ridden for a few months, over a year until I could walk normally again). I can't tell you whether or not my personal experience is representative of that of others, but I can tell you that moving my back quickly frightens me still. Tension and speed are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and it takes a certain skill to be able to stay tight enough for a heavy lift while simultaneously attempting to move the weight quickly.
So the answer to this,
I can't argue with the results that Westside and others have achieved nor do I intend to. But speed has almost never been a focus of my training. I have incorporated some of what thinking about moving the bar fast does when I've trained 50%-ish weights with bands, but I'm still not thinking about moving the weight quickly, and I don't do that kind of training often.
OTOH, I think speed as we use it in kettlebell ballistics is a safe and effective thing for many people - the weight is much lighter, the rep count generally higher, and the net effect different, I think. But when I'm deadlifting a barbell, my focus is on pushing the floor away with my feet and moving my hips forward, and not about trying to do either of those things more quickly than what comes naturally to me.
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So the answer to this,
is Yes.
I can't argue with the results that Westside and others have achieved nor do I intend to. But speed has almost never been a focus of my training. I have incorporated some of what thinking about moving the bar fast does when I've trained 50%-ish weights with bands, but I'm still not thinking about moving the weight quickly, and I don't do that kind of training often.
OTOH, I think speed as we use it in kettlebell ballistics is a safe and effective thing for many people - the weight is much lighter, the rep count generally higher, and the net effect different, I think. But when I'm deadlifting a barbell, my focus is on pushing the floor away with my feet and moving my hips forward, and not about trying to do either of those things more quickly than what comes naturally to me.
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william bad butt
Level 7 Valued Member
Antii/Steve,
It agree with both of you. I find that I am very explosive with my squats and bench press, especially out of the hole. However, when deadlifting, I am very slow (even with light weights) breaking the weight off the ground. After the bar is above my knee the bar comes up quick though.
I also have a history of back problems. I find that when I am too explosive with the deadlift my hips rise too fast and then I am out of position to finish the lift.
It agree with both of you. I find that I am very explosive with my squats and bench press, especially out of the hole. However, when deadlifting, I am very slow (even with light weights) breaking the weight off the ground. After the bar is above my knee the bar comes up quick though.
I also have a history of back problems. I find that when I am too explosive with the deadlift my hips rise too fast and then I am out of position to finish the lift.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Compensatory Acceleration
As Antti stated, the speed of the bar in the concentric contraction is paramount in the development of Power and Strength.
Research on Hatfield's Compensatory Acceleration Method (circa 1980's) has demonstrated it elicits a greater training effect.
To reiterate, "The Intent" (as Dr Jeff McBride termed it) with for Speed/Power should be applied to heavy load that move slowly, as well. I went over that in a previous post.
Great Point.
Speed/Power is utilized in teaching Olympic Lifts, Kettlebell Swings, etc.
The application and concepts of Speed/Power with Traditional Exercises (Squats, Bench Press, Deadlifts)
As Shahaf Levin noted in his post, the anecdotal data that has been around since around the early 1980's (for about 35 years) has verified that fact.
Westside Powerlifting Training
"Speed (Power) Training" is a vital component of this method.
Drs Michael Zourdos (PhD dissertation), Dr Daniel Baker (research on Velocity/Speed Training for Strength), Dr Jeff McBride (research Speed and "The Intent" to move heavy load fast), Dr Fred Hatfield (Compensatory Acceleration), etc demonstrated that employing "Speed (Power) Training with Traditional Exercises elicit a greater increase in Power and Strength.
Kenny Croxdale
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Personal Bias
Your back issue clouds the issue of your view of "Speed (Power) Training"; understandably so.
For someone with your situation, "Speed Training" may not be effective.
Speed Training with Traditional Exercises
The application of "Speed Training" with Traditional Exercise is that same as with Kettlebell Speed Exercises.
Speed Training Percentage with Traditional Exercises is defined as load of 10 to 40% of 1 Repetition Max, with 30% of 1 Repetition Max usually being the most effective. Source: Supertraining/Siff and Verkhoshansky.
Thus, the weight is "Much lighter", as with "Kettlebell Ballistics".
Power Training Percentages
Power is developed in Traditional Exercises (Squats, Bench Press, Deadlift, etc) with load of 48 to 63% of 1 Repetition Max.
Thus, the weight is still "Much lighter" (falling into a Moderate Loaded Movement). Due to the moderate load for the Power Movement it should allow all lifters to adhere to technique.
It is mandatory for any lifter unable to perform a movement with any training load percentage to decrease the load; develop technique with that Training Load Percentage. Then the exercise load can be increased.
Speed, Power and Strength Training Repetition Range
Speed, Power and Strength Training employ the same Repetition Rage, 1 - 6 Repetition.
That due to the fact that Fast Twitch Type IIa and the "Super" Fast Type IIb/X fatigue in approximately 15 seconds.
A down gearing effect occurs the longer a high intensity movement is performed.
"Super" Fast Type IIb/x quickly are exhausted. Once that occurs, they downshift to the Fast Twitch Type IIa.
Once the Fast Twitch Type IIa fatigue; the Slow Twitch Type I Fiber perform the movement.
With that in said, you are correct in you assessment that...
"...Much lighter, the rep count generally higher, and the net effect different,..."
Lighter loads, with higher repetitions build and promote endurance rather than developing Speed, Power and/or Strength.
The Conventional Deadlift Is A Pull, Not A Squat Press
I have posted research information on this site and others.
Research (Dr Tom McLaughlin) found that in a 1 Repetition Powerlifting Deadlift "Pull", the lower back initiates the drive off the floor. Additional research by other has confirmed McLaughlin's finding.
The Back initiates the drive off the floor, the Legs kick in. It is a "Bang-Bang" Sequence. It occurs so quickly that it is hard to recognize.
The traditional recommendation of, "Pushing the floor away..." amount to "Leg Pressing the weight off the floor.
With that said, the Legs/Quads are important in a Conventional Deadlift. That is why I recommend Auxiliary Deadlift Exercise include; Quarter Squats, Quart Step Ups, the Leg Press, the Hack Squat (as you have noted is a great Quad Exercise, Front Squats, etc.
Doing What Come Naturally
The caveat is that "Doing what come naturally" doesn't mean "Performing it correctly.
In working with a kid on his Good Morning Squatting Technique, he told me that it felt natural.
If you perform a movement incorrectly long enough, it will feel natural.
In correcting his form by working on his technique, he stated, "It didn't feel natural."
My reply was, "Keep doing it until it does feel natural".
Sick months later, it his new improved technique felt natural, his Squat went up and his Deadlift, as well, since he wasn't beating the crap out of his back with a Heavy Good Morning Squat.
Take Home Message
1) Compensatory Acceleration: Speed/Power Training with Traditional Lifts (Squat, Bench Press, Deadlift) have documented research demonstrating they are a vital component in the development of Strength; pushing/pulling more weight up. Dr Zourdos', Dr Daniel Baker, Dr Jeff McBrides research is available on line.
The Westside Powerlifting Training Method has been around for close to 35 years. It provide definitive empirical data that demonstrates it works.
2) "...Speed and form aren't at odds...": As per Antti, both can and need to trained at the same time in some form or fashion, via Conjugate Training.
3) Your Bias: You're bias against Speed/Power Training is driven by your back issue. I have some understanding and empathy for you.
However, just because it doesn't work for you (for whatever reason) doesn't mean it is ineffective or productive for others.
Creatine does't work for me. I am a non-responder.
However, I endorse it because I've seen how effective it is for the majority who do use it.
Kenny Croxdale
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My "doing what comes naturally" was a specific reference to "trying to do either of those things more quickly than what comes naturally to me," which is to say, it was about trying to lift faster, which is the subject of the conversation here. I agree with what you said, of course, but you are preaching to the proverbial choir here. We were discussing a particular point, speed, something associated with the conjugate method as popularized by Westside Barbell.
Tension and speed are fundamentally opposites, which isn't to say they can't and shouldn't be practiced simultaneously by those who are able to do so, but I don't agree with the notion that speed is a basic principle of strength training that should be taught to everyone from the beginning. Learn to get tight and stay tight first, and then add speed to that if it works for you in the pursuit of greater performance.
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Tension is involved in producing Speed due to the fact that the force of an object or body is magnified.
However, there is less Time Under Tension with a Speed or Power compared to a Strength Movement.
Thus, Tension is still a component of Speed; performed in a much shorter time frame.
Kenny Croxdale
@kennycro@@aol.com, you are again responding to something I didn't say.
Happy New Year to everyone.
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Happy New Year to everyone.
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