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Barbell Back squat depth (for barefoot powerlifters)

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I'd change one thing in the way the above is worded: instead of "ride the brakes" I'd say "control your descent."
"Riding The Brakes"

In a Squat and Bench Press you need to "Ride The Brakes" on the Eccentric Components; meaning there need to be a fairly slow descent.

In the Squat, a couple of inches before hitting the hole, allowing the Bar Speed to Accelerate elicit the Stretch Reflex.

In Touch and Go Bench Pressing Training the same approach is utilized as with the Squat; a couple of inches before touching the chest, allow the Bar Speed to accelerate to elicit the Stretch Reflex.

"Controlled Descent"

This does not convey that the Bar Speed needs be decreased in the Eccentric Component of a Squat, Bench Press or any other Movement.

A "Controlled Descent" also occurs with Eccentric Components of some Movements; such as a Deadlifts and Olympic Movements.

The Deadlift and Olympic Movement are primarily Concentric Movements. There isn't much, if any, of an Eccentric Component.

Essentially, with these movement it amount to a Controlled Dropping of the Bar back down to the Platform; holding on the the bar as it accelerated, maintaining some control, guiding it down.
 
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I'd change one thing in the way the above is worded: instead of "ride the brakes" I'd say "control your descent."

The idea of, near the end of the descent, trying to "bounce" that last little bit is something I've noticed is done by many great squatters, and it's what I try to do, too. Absolutely you need to practice it - video yourself directly from the side, camera at parallel depth, and get feedback from other lifters who compete in your federation about your depth. I compete USPA and there's a Facebook group - you'll find plenty of squat video's asking for feedback on depth.

-S-

Yes, there is a sweet spot between dive bombing your squats and being so controlled that the stretch reflex is muted due lack of speed.
 
We'll have to agree to disagree on pause squats. Imho, one of the few things pause squats might be good for is figuring out and ingraining kinesthetic awareness/proprioception of depth. We discussed this in a different thread, but pause squats have never done a thing to help my 1rm and, in fact, I'd argue actually made my squats slower.
Slower or weaker? Or both?

Going more slowly hugely benefitted my low bar squat. Of course, there’s going slowly for going slowly’s sake, and there’s going slowly while observing the feedback of the body, gradually gaining tension and plugging leaks on the descent to practice all necessary components of handling a heavy weight.

I suppose, how you treat the bottom position matters. I always tried to continue to accrue tension at the paused bottom, as if the weight was getting heavier and my body was a spring being loaded further and further - as opposed to remaining static like a statue.

However, I don’t possess the ideal structure of a natural born squatter and the descent is a loooooong way down. While I never had issues with the stretch reflex, getting to the bottom optimally was always arduous. If one has a natural squat build, I wonder what else they really need to improve their squat aside from the squat. I’d reckon most folks who ask questions like this about the squat share my genotype, or haven’t trained the movement enough.

But to each their own.
 
Slower or weaker? Or both?
Slower and not stronger.
Going more slowly hugely benefitted my low bar squat. Of course, there’s going slowly for going slowly’s sake, and there’s going slowly while observing the feedback of the body, gradually gaining tension and plugging leaks on the descent to practice all necessary components of handling a heavy weight.

I suppose, how you treat the bottom position matters. I always tried to continue to accrue tension at the paused bottom, as if the weight was getting heavier and my body was a spring being loaded further and further - as opposed to remaining static like a statue.
I think we both treat the eccentric and the pause similarly.

However, I don’t possess the ideal structure of a natural born squatter and the descent is a loooooong way down. While I never had issues with the stretch reflex, getting to the bottom optimally was always arduous. If one has a natural squat build, I wonder what else they really need to improve their squat aside from the squat. I’d reckon most folks who ask questions like this about the squat share my genotype, or haven’t trained the movement enough.

But to each their own.
I have good leverages to squat, but leverages will only take you so far, and father time has its way with us all. I've certainly trained the movement a lot - I'm now in my 4th decade of squatting with many ups and downs and long plateaus along the way. Have I trained it 'enough'? Idk. I've done my share of pause squats and determined that they were not the best use of my training time but, like you said, to each their own.
 
I prefer to feel I'm in control of what I'm doing.

Maintaining Control

Yes, maintaining control of the bar and weight of the movement is fundamental. Other wise, the bar and weight is controlling you; taking your some place that you don't want to go and shouldn't.

We're saying the same thing. I don't find the image of "riding the brakes" every does anything good for me in any lift.

Saying The Same Thing To Some Extent

Maintaining control of the bar and weight (resistance) doesn't necessary mean slowing the Eccentric Movement Down.

In some Training Movements a Controlled Eccentric Free Fall is performed to elicit a different Training Effect.

1) Heavy Deadlifts

First of all, it's hard to slowly lower a Heavy Deadlift in Training or in performing a Deadlift at a Powerlifting Meet.

Essentially, there it is more of a Free Weight Guided Fall of the bar to the floor; a Deadlift is primarily a Concentric Movement with a very small if any Eccentric Muscle Component.

2) Quazi-Plyometric Conventional Deadlifts

Performing a Conventional Deadlift by bouncing it off the floor with a Controlled Free Fall; the bounce allows more weight to be performed comparative to performing Deadlifts from a Dead Stop.

Most Conventional Deadlifter have a lot of acceleration off the floor with a Dead Stop Deadlift in the gym or at Meets.

The Sticking Point is usually in the knee are; just below, right at or a little above the knees.

Bouncing the Deadlift for these individual allows them to OverLoad the Movement in the knee area.

To a degree Bouncing the Deadlift off the floor is "Over Speed Training", employing some of the Stretch Reflex, a Power Movement.

Leg Drive Deadlift

For Conventional Deadlifter who are stronger at the top end of the lift and less off the floor, bouncing the Deadlift off the floor is contraindicated (such as yourself an Anna).

Sumo Deadlifters have a hard time breaking the weight off the floor, as well.

Deadlifters (Conventional and Sumo) who utilize the Leg to break the weight off the floor should employ Auxiliary Exercises that do that.,

1) Halting Deadlifts



Anna's posted videos and information on how she'd increased her Conventional Deadlift with this approach a few years ago. It was impressive.

2) Trap Bar Squat/Deadlifts

This place more of the workload in driving the bar off the ground with the Legs.

3) High Bar Quarter Squats

This exercise simulates the Deadlift Leg Drive off the floor.

High Bar Quarter Squats do more for your Deadlift than your Squat.

4) Leg Press

The Leg Press, as well does more for increasing Leg Drive off the floor than for your Squat.

Gene Bell, one of the great 242 lb Deadlifter, stated the Leg Press did more for his Deadlift than his Squat.

5) Isometric Deadlift

Performing Isometric Deadlift from the floor position or a little higher.

Either...

a) Static Isomteric Holdsf

b) Functional Isomteric Deadlifts


Loaded Pulls off the floor in to Powerlifting Pin that are just a little higher up.

Other Controlled Eccentric Ballistic Movements

1) Bench Press Throws

a) Smith Machine




1669726066965.png

"The objective is to lower the bar to the chest, throw the load in the air, then catch it and start again."


This is a bit safer than a...

b) Free Weight Bench Press Throw

Performing this in a Power Rack with Safety Tiers should be used.

2) Depth Jumps

Dropping off a Box and Rebouding back up.

3) Altitude Drops/Depth Landings

Sticking the landing, no rebound jump.

a) Advanced Altitude Drops



b) Bench Press Altitude Drops (50 second mark)

 
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Hi all. I got swamped and needed a few days before coming back to this properly, and I wanted to say a HUGE thank you to everyone who answered! I truly love this community and the care everyone brings to helping each other :)

@Anna C thanks for your encouragement, also @watchnerd for seconding the pause squats opinion, and I feel good about my safeties catching me when training at home if it were to come to that. @Mark Limbaga good suggestion on percentage for speed training, thanks.

On the pause squat thing - I tend to go a bit slow as it is already, even under less than maximal loads. I actually sometimes do some eyes-shut squatting for proprioception, and it reminds me to go back to this. It's probably my best warmup, maybe even with a few pauses to check positioning while still with an empty bar) as per @Philippe Geoffrion , and then a speed focus with a stretch reflex focus will be more fruitful. @silveraw I really like the idea of the foam pad for feedback on depth! That I can set up right away.

@Boris Bachmann In my home gym with my cheapo squat rack, unfortunately the bands and chains aren't going to be easy to set up, but I agree that with any load, the paused squats have tended to slow me down even more in the past.

@Steve Freides That tip for hands firing is super actionable, and I really like your progression of pause to comp depth only. Also highly actionable and a great way to implement this.

@Kenny Croxdale Those links and suggestions are wonderful, thanks - glut med gets all of the pressure sometimes in the whole valgus situation, and I liked the link. Some of those things, I've implemented in the past and they have fallen off of my radar and should come back on, particularly the RNT, and I really like it with the step down. That McLaughlin article is going to help me wrap my head around the stretch reflex better, because I've always had trouble with truly conceptualizing it, but it will take a bit of digesting and practice.

And then, whoa, I just saw now that there's another whole page of comments! Whoo-hoo! Give me a moment to go through those also. I'm actually doing a copy and paste to make myself a file of squat in put. This is wonderful. To be continued...
 
"Riding The Brakes"

In a Squat and Bench Press you need to "Ride The Brakes" on the Eccentric Components; meaning there need to be a fairly slow descent.

In the Squat, a couple of inches before hitting the hole, allowing the Bar Speed to Accelerate elicit the Stretch Reflex.

In Touch and Go Bench Pressing Training the same approach is utilized as with the Squat; a couple of inches before touching the chest, allow the Bar Speed to accelerate to elicit the Stretch Reflex.

"Controlled Descent"

This does not convey that the Bar Speed needs be decreased in the Eccentric Component of a Squat, Bench Press or any other Movement.

A "Controlled Descent" also occurs with Eccentric Components of some Movements; such as a Deadlifts and Olympic Movements.

The Deadlift and Olympic Movement are primarily Concentric Movements. There isn't much, if any, of an Eccentric Component.

Essentially, with these movement it amount to a Controlled Dropping of the Bar back down to the Platform; holding on the the bar as it accelerated, maintaining some control, guiding it down.
The point about accelerating just before hitting the hole is something that Lewis Noppers said to me backstage once (GOODLIFT | Lifters | Profile), and this type of discussion helps me to process it better now. Thanks!
 
Slower or weaker? Or both?

Going more slowly hugely benefitted my low bar squat. Of course, there’s going slowly for going slowly’s sake, and there’s going slowly while observing the feedback of the body, gradually gaining tension and plugging leaks on the descent to practice all necessary components of handling a heavy weight.

I suppose, how you treat the bottom position matters. I always tried to continue to accrue tension at the paused bottom, as if the weight was getting heavier and my body was a spring being loaded further and further - as opposed to remaining static like a statue.

However, I don’t possess the ideal structure of a natural born squatter and the descent is a loooooong way down. While I never had issues with the stretch reflex, getting to the bottom optimally was always arduous. If one has a natural squat build, I wonder what else they really need to improve their squat aside from the squat. I’d reckon most folks who ask questions like this about the squat share my genotype, or haven’t trained the movement enough.

But to each their own.
This is an awesome image for at the bottom of the squat! I really like it.
 
One thing I didn't see mentioned yet...
Any chance that you have access to a powerlifting coach to help you prep? I "bibliocoached" for years, and experienced a huge leap forward once I started working with coaches in person.
Yes, thank you, I have had coaching on and off in person and through Covid via Zoom. I've focused more on deadlift and bench (which requires a pause at the chest when competing), partly because I never felt like I "got" the feeling of the stretch reflex in the squat. Conversations like this thread are really helping!
 
Maintaining Control

Yes, maintaining control of the bar and weight of the movement is fundamental. Other wise, the bar and weight is controlling you; taking your some place that you don't want to go and shouldn't.



Saying The Same Thing To Some Extent

Maintaining control of the bar and weight (resistance) doesn't necessary mean slowing the Eccentric Movement Down.

In some Training Movements a Controlled Eccentric Free Fall is performed to elicit a different Training Effect.

1) Heavy Deadlifts

First of all, it's hard to slowly lower a Heavy Deadlift in Training or in performing a Deadlift at a Powerlifting Meet.

Essentially, there it is more of a Free Weight Guided Fall of the bar to the floor; a Deadlift is primarily a Concentric Movement with a very small if any Eccentric Muscle Component.

2) Quazi-Plyometric Conventional Deadlifts

Performing a Conventional Deadlift by bouncing it off the floor with a Controlled Free Fall; the bounce allows more weight to be performed comparative to performing Deadlifts from a Dead Stop.

Most Conventional Deadlifter have a lot of acceleration off the floor with a Dead Stop Deadlift in the gym or at Meets.

The Sticking Point is usually in the knee are; just below, right at or a little above the knees.

Bouncing the Deadlift for these individual allows them to OverLoad the Movement in the knee area.

To a degree Bouncing the Deadlift off the floor is "Over Speed Training", employing some of the Stretch Reflex, a Power Movement.

Leg Drive Deadlift

For Conventional Deadlifter who are stronger at the top end of the lift and less off the floor, bouncing the Deadlift off the floor is contraindicated (such as yourself an Anna).

Sumo Deadlifters have a hard time breaking the weight off the floor, as well.

Deadlifters (Conventional and Sumo) who utilize the Leg to break the weight off the floor should employ Auxiliary Exercises that do that.,

1) Halting Deadlifts



Anna's posted videos and information on how she'd increased her Conventional Deadlift with this approach a few years ago. It was impressive.

2) Trap Bar Squat/Deadlifts

This place more of the workload in driving the bar off the ground with the Legs.

3) High Bar Quarter Squats

This exercise simulates the Deadlift Leg Drive off the floor.

High Bar Quarter Squats do more for your Deadlift than your Squat.

4) Leg Press

The Leg Press, as well does more for increasing Leg Drive off the floor than for your Squat.

Gene Bell, one of the great 242 lb Deadlifter, stated the Leg Press did more for his Deadlift than his Squat.

5) Isometric Deadlift

Performing Isometric Deadlift from the floor position or a little higher.

Either...

a) Static Isomteric Holdsf

b) Functional Isomteric Deadlifts


Loaded Pulls off the floor in to Powerlifting Pin that are just a little higher up.

Other Controlled Eccentric Ballistic Movements

1) Bench Press Throws

a) Smith Machine




View attachment 19857

"The objective is to lower the bar to the chest, throw the load in the air, then catch it and start again."


This is a bit safer than a...

b) Free Weight Bench Press Throw

Performing this in a Power Rack with Safety Tiers should be used.

2) Depth Jumps

Dropping off a Box and Rebouding back up.

3) Altitude Drops/Depth Landings

Sticking the landing, no rebound jump.

a) Advanced Altitude Drops



b) Bench Press Altitude Drops (50 second mark)


Whoa, those altitude drops!! Not there yet ;) But I really like that Smith machine idea for benching! And I do have access to one about twice a week. As the T-Nation article says, only 20% of your max to not get decapitated... also a great bonus there with Rippetoe's halting deadlift. (I don't have a lockout problem in deadlift; it's all about leaving the floor.) Many thanks again.
 
suggestion on percentage for speed training,
Strength Training Percentages

There are definitive Training Percentages for for Traditional Strength Training Movements.

Let's break it down...

1) Speed Training

The Training Percentage needs to be 10-40% of 1 Repetition Max with around 30% being the sweet spot.

Due to the Low Training Percentage, a body or object needs to go airborne. Failing do so develops Speed in a very small Range of The Movement. The majority of the Movement is devoted to decreasing the Speed.

2) Power Training''

Power Training involves performing a Traditional Strength Training Movement with 48-62% of a 1 Repetition Max.

Ironcially, the term "Speed Training" was inappropriately use; which is incorrect

To optimally develop Power though the entire Range of the Movement, "The Intent" to jump with the weight or project the weight into the air is necessary.

For somone preferring not to go airborne...

Attach Chain and/Or Bands

Attaching Chains and/or Band ensure Power Output/Development through a greater Range of The Movement.

Types of Explosive Power
Fundamentals of Special Strength, Verkhoshansky

These are the three types...

1) Explosive-Isometric Ballistic

This means starting The Movement from a Dead Stop and Exploding up with it.

Examples

a) Power Clean form a Dead Stop off the floor.

b) Barbell Jump Squat performed from sitting on a box with a Dead Stop.

c) Trap Bar Jump from a Dead Stop.

d) Pause Bench Press Throws from a Dead Stop.

2) Explosive Ballistic

The Movement is initiated with some momentum prior to Explosived Up.

Examples

1) Shot Putters generating momentum by spinnig prior to throwing the Shot.

2) Rocking Box Squat. Generating some momentum by rocking forward on the box prior to diving the weight up.

Think of it like getting up from a sofa.

3) Explosive-Reactive-Ballsitic

Reactive meaning eliciting the Stretch Reflex prior driving the weight up.

Examples

Touch and Go Squats off a Box, Rebounding out of the hole in a Squat, Touch and Go Bench Press, Touch and Go Deadlift with a Bounce off the floor

As the T-Nation article says, only 20% of your max to not get decapitated

Speed Training

To reiterate, Speed Training is elicited with load of 10-40% of your 1 Repetition Max, with around 30% being the sweet stop.

Thus, a slightly Heavier Load can be used; providing the Concentric Bar Speed doesn't drop down too much.

As with everything, start with something light and easy, then gradually increase it.

From 0 to 100: Know Your Percentages!


This article provide some good inforamtion.

Eccentric Speed

1) Heavy Load


As McLaughlin's reseach noted, with Heavy Load in a Squat or Bench Press, the Eccentric Bar Speed needs to slowed down.

Slowing down the Eccentric Bar Speed, decreases the magnification of the Load.

In this scenario, as McLaughlin put it, "Speed Kills"!

2) Light Loads

With a Light Load, allowing the a Weighted Oject to drop quickly or Free Fall is effective at increasing the load so that the Stretch Reflex is optimally developed.

Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Strength & Power

In this article, a The Medicine Ball Drop is used to elicit and develop the Stretch Reflex. it's effective but I am more of a fan of Smith or Free Weight Bench Press Throws.

As the article notes, a "10 pound medicine ball... dropped from 42 inches (the distance between where the ball is dropped from and the outstretched hands)...elicit a training load of 90 pounds." The article provide the formula this.

The same training effect for the Squats can evoked with Dept Jumps...

Squatting To Be Explosive, Train Explosive

"The average heights for depth jumps are 0.75-0.8 meters (27-30 inches). Athletes over 220 pounds should use heights of 0.5-0.75 meters (18-27 inches)." (Dassie, 1999)."
 
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Strength Training Percentages

There are definitive Training Percentages for for Traditional Strength Training Movements.

Let's break it down...

1) Speed Training

The Training Percentage needs to be 10-40% of 1 Repetition Max with around 30% being the sweet spot.

Due to the Low Training Percentage, a body or object needs to go airborne. Failing do so develops Speed in a very small Range of The Movement. The majority of the Movement is devoted to decreasing the Speed.

2) Power Training''

Power Training involves performing a Traditional Strength Training Movement with 48-62% of a 1 Repetition Max.

Ironcially, the term "Speed Training" was inappropriately use; which is incorrect

To optimally develop Power though the entire Range of the Movement, "The Intent" to jump with the weight or project the weight into the air is necessary.

For somone preferring not to go airborne...

Attach Chain and/Or Bands

Attaching Chains and/or Band ensure Power Output/Development through a greater Range of The Movement.

Types of Explosive Power
Fundamentals of Special Strength, Verkhoshansky

These are the three types...

1) Explosive-Isometric Ballistic

This means starting The Movement from a Dead Stop and Exploding up with it.

Examples

a) Power Clean form a Dead Stop off the floor.

b) Barbell Jump Squat performed from sitting on a box with a Dead Stop.

c) Trap Bar Jump from a Dead Stop.

d) Pause Bench Press Throws from a Dead Stop.

2) Explosive Ballistic

The Movement is initiated with some momentum prior to Explosived Up.

Examples

1) Shot Putters generating momentum by spinnig prior to throwing the Shot.

2) Rocking Box Squat. Generating some momentum by rocking forward on the box prior to diving the weight up.

Think of it like getting up from a sofa.

3) Explosive-Reactive-Ballsitic

Reactive meaning eliciting the Stretch Reflex prior driving the weight up.

Examples

Touch and Go Squats off a Box, Rebounding out of the hole in a Squat, Touch and Go Bench Press, Touch and Go Deadlift with a Bounce off the floor



Speed Training

To reiterate, Speed Training is elicited with load of 10-40% of your 1 Repetition Max, with around 30% being the sweet stop.

Thus, a slightly Heavier Load can be used; providing the Concentric Bar Speed doesn't drop down too much.

As with everything, start with something light and easy, then gradually increase it.

From 0 to 100: Know Your Percentages!


This article provide some good inforamtion.

Eccentric Speed

1) Heavy Load


As McLaughlin's reseach noted, with Heavy Load in a Squat or Bench Press, the Eccentric Bar Speed needs to slowed down.

Slowing down the Eccentric Bar Speed, decreases the magnification of the Load.

In this scenario, as McLaughlin put it, "Speed Kills"!

2) Light Loads

With a Light Load, allowing the a Weighted Oject to drop quickly or Free Fall is effective at increasing the load so that the Stretch Reflex is optimally developed.

Plyometric Bench Press Training for More Strength & Power

In this article, a The Medicine Ball Drop is used to elicit and develop the Stretch Reflex. it's effective but I am more of a fan of Smith or Free Weight Bench Press Throws.

As the article notes, a "10 pound medicine ball... dropped from 42 inches (the distance between where the ball is dropped from and the outstretched hands)...elicit a training load of 90 pounds." The article provide the formula this.

The same training effect for the Squats can evoked with Dept Jumps...

Squatting To Be Explosive, Train Explosive

"The average heights for depth jumps are 0.75-0.8 meters (27-30 inches). Athletes over 220 pounds should use heights of 0.5-0.75 meters (18-27 inches)." (Dassie, 1999)."
Thanks! You are a wealth of information! For this morning, I've basically done a copy and paste of this portion into my running article, and I will be back to digest it properly within the week. For today's squatting just before that, I did use some of the drills from your (P)Rehab stuff, and kept that feel through the jump squat warmup. Felt very good and contributed to a more solid feel especially when initiating the push up. Thank you again, and take care :)
 
Thanks! You are a wealth of information! For this morning, I've basically done a copy and paste of this portion into my running article, and I will be back to digest it properly within the week. For today's squatting just before that, I did use some of the drills from your (P)Rehab stuff, and kept that feel through the jump squat warmup. Felt very good and contributed to a more solid feel especially when initiating the push up. Thank you again, and take care :)
Oh, I see. I meant "running" as in, an ongoing collection of info that is an article about squat depth. Thank you for checking this!
 
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