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Bodyweight Backextension muscles worked

blubb

Level 1 Valued Member
I have read that backextensions train the lower back (lower spinal erectors), but does it also hit the 'middle' and 'upper'
erectors? Dumb question but yeah would love to know!
 

PeterLuffman

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
The short answer is yes, but I suspect what you really want to know is but to what extent?

If this is an area you want to strengthen with progression, I'd recommend you use a barbell in the low bar position during the exercise, or deadlift a weight from the floor. This assumes you're talking about using a 45 degree back hyper extension bench?
 

blubb

Level 1 Valued Member
The short answer is yes, but I suspect what you really want to know is but to what extent?

If this is an area you want to strengthen with progression, I'd recommend you use a barbell in the low bar position during the exercise, or deadlift a weight from the floor. This assumes you're talking about using a 45 degree back hyper extension bench?
Exactly, that's the one I mean.
Interesting! What do you think about holding something like a dumbbell/barbell behind my neck? Maybe my upper erectors would work even more then? They are so weak compared to my lower back. Or is your suggestion better cause you can load it more?
 

PeterLuffman

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Exactly, that's the one I mean.
Interesting! What do you think about holding something like a dumbbell/barbell behind my neck? Maybe my upper erectors would work even more then? They are so weak compared to my lower back. Or is your suggestion better cause you can load it more?
Yes barbell on the back is my suggestion. Put it in the low bar position on the rear delts. Sounds like regular DL should be in your program too, or is it?
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 6 Valued Member
I have read that backextensions train the lower back (lower spinal erectors), but does it also hit the 'middle' and 'upper'
erectors?

Back Extensions

The extent in which the spinal erectors are worked and engaged is dependent on how the movement is performed.

Hip Placement on the Back Extension Bench is a huge determinate of where the workload is place; which muscle are engage more so than other in the Posterior Chain.

Hip Placement is similar to performing a Flat Bench Press vs and Incline Bench Press. The same muscle groups are involved.

However, the muscle involvement changes. The Flat Bench Press and Incline Bench Press two completely different exercise. Each elicits a different Training Response.

Chair/Seated Deadlifts




Chair/Seated Deadlifts performed with a wide or narrow foot stance work the Lumbar Spine.

As any new exercise, especially one for the Lumbar Spine, needs to start with something light and gradually increase in

The Chair/Seated Deadlift essentially work like the Med-X Medical Lumbar Extension Machine, seen here...

MedX Medical Lumbar Extension




The Med-X Medical Lumbar Extension Machine prevents Hyperextension; which is contraindicated.

Hyperextension

One of the issues with Back Raises and Lumbar Exercises is to move the weight up, many individual hyperextend the lower back; which is counter productive.

That is one of the reason many individual have Low Back issue with Back Raises. They end up Hyperextending the Lower Back.

The same occurs with some individual with Kettlebell Swings. In order to complete a heavy swing, they throw their head back. This leads to them Hyperextending their Lower Back.

The objective in a Lumbar Extension Exercise is to bring the upper body in line with the lower body, as you would if you were standing up straight; a neutral positions.

One method that ensure a Neutral Lumbar Position is maintained with the Lumbar Back is...

Neck Packing



Tucking you chin down into your chest ensures a Neutral Spine is maintained, Lumbar Hyperextension doesn't occur.

Throwing you head back lead to Lumbar Hyperextension, which one of the causes of lower back problems.




This article and video demonstrate Thoracic Extensor Exercises.

In the video, Contreras demonstrate the "Seated Kettlebell Deadlift"; which is the same as the Chair/Seated Deadlift".

The Seated Good Morning also engages and works the Lumbar Spine...notice the Lumbar Flexion, below...

8-Great-Thoracic-Extensor-Exercises.jpg



The Lumbar Flexion in the Chair/Seated Deadlift and the above Seated Good Morning work the Lower Back; bending forward in the waist; followed by Lumbar Extension, bending the spine backward to straighten it
 
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blubb

Level 1 Valued Member
Yes barbell on the back is my suggestion. Put it in the low bar position on the rear delts. Sounds like regular DL should be in your program too, or is it?
I will for sure try it!
No, they are not and that's probably why I got this problem.. I just don't like how big they make you, very fast haha! I enjoy being at the gym doing different exercises. And my technique sucks as well! But now when I know how the erectors responds to even bodyweight, I regret I didn't do any kind of deadlift variation with very low weights for sure.
 

blubb

Level 1 Valued Member
Back Extensions

The extent in which the spinal erectors are worked and engaged is dependent on how the movement is performed.

Hip Placement on the Back Extension Bench is a huge determinate of where the workload is place; which muscle are engage more so than other in the Posterior Chain.

Hip Placement is similar to performing a Flat Bench Press vs and Incline Bench Press. The same muscle groups are involved.

However, the muscle involvement changes. The Flat Bench Press and Incline Bench Press two completely different exercise. Each elicits a different Training Response.

Chair/Seated Deadlifts




Chair/Seated Deadlifts performed with a wide or narrow foot stance work the Lumbar Spine.

As any new exercise, especially one for the Lumbar Spine, needs to start with something light and gradually increase in

The Chair/Seated Deadlift essentially work like the Med-X Medical Lumbar Extension Machine, seen here...

MedX Medical Lumbar Extension




The Med-X Medical Lumbar Extension Machine prevents Hyperextension; which is contraindicated.

Hyperextension

One of the issues with Back Raises and Lumbar Exercises is to move the weight up, many individual hyperextend the lower back; which is counter productive.

That is one of the reason many individual have Low Back issue with Back Raises. They end up Hyperextending the Lower Back.

The same occurs with some individual with Kettlebell Swings. In order to complete a heavy swing, they throw their head back. This leads to them Hyperextending their Lower Back.

The objective in a Lumbar Extension Exercise is to bring the upper body in line with the lower body, as you would if you were standing up straight; a neutral positions.

One method that ensure a Neutral Lumbar Position is maintained with the Lumbar Back is...

Neck Packing



Tucking you chin down into your chest ensures a Neutral Spine is maintained, Lumbar Hyperextension doesn't occur.

Throwing you head back lead to Lumbar Hyperextension, which one of the causes of lower back problems.




This article and video demonstrate Thoracic Extensor Exercises.

In the video, Contreras demonstrate the "Seated Kettlebell Deadlift"; which is the same as the Chair/Seated Deadlift".

The Seated Good Morning also engages and works the Lumbar Spine...notice the Lumbar Flexion, below...

8-Great-Thoracic-Extensor-Exercises.jpg



The Lumbar Flexion in the Chair/Seated Deadlift and the above Seated Good Morning work the Lower Back; bending forward in the waist; followed by Lumbar Extension, bending the spine backward to straighten it
Thanks a lot Kenny for showing this kind of dedication! Really!

I just tried the good morning with bands and it feels great! But I can't do long ROM since I'm so damn stiff! Hopefully it will get better now when I'm strenghtening it and I will keep doing thoracic stretching.

Just a question. In the first sentence you were talking about how it matters where you put your hips on the back extension machine. Where should I have my hips if I want to prioritize the upper erectors? More forward or backwards?
 

PeterLuffman

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
I will for sure try it!
No, they are not and that's probably why I got this problem.. I just don't like how big they make you, very fast haha! I enjoy being at the gym doing different exercises. And my technique sucks as well! But now when I know how the erectors responds to even bodyweight, I regret I didn't do any kind of deadlift variation with very low weights for sure.
Deadlifts make you big? I'm jealous! That never happened to me.
 

blubb

Level 1 Valued Member
Deadlifts make you big? I'm jealous! That never happened to me.
Haha well I should have said that I don't like to do them because I put months of hardwork to get a V shaped body, then I did ONE session recently where I trained rackpulls and after that my back got square. :mad:
 

PeterLuffman

Level 6 Valued Member
Certified Instructor
Haha well I should have said that I don't like to do them because I put months of hardwork to get a V shaped body, then I did ONE session recently where I trained rackpulls and after that my back got square. :mad:
I'd encourage you to re-examine your beliefs around this and what actually happened. Physique changes take months.
 

Kenny Croxdale

Level 6 Valued Member
In the first sentence you were talking about how it matters where you put your hips on the back extension machine. Where should I have my hips if I want to prioritize the upper erectors?
Lumbar Back Extensions

Placing yourself so that you are more forward on the the Back Extension engages the Lumbar Back to a greater degree. It allows more flexion and extension of the lower back to occur; which work that area.

You need to play around with it and find the right spot.

Hip Extension

The Hamstrings and Glute are employed to a greater degree when your hips are just behind the pads and when you tuck your chin into your chest (you Neck Pack). With this method, the Lumbar Muscle preform an Isometric; there is no flexion or extension, they don't move.

Deadlifts

I don't like to do them because I put months of hardwork to get a V shaped body, then I did ONE session recently where I trained rackpulls and after that my back got square.

As per PeterLuffman...

I'd encourage you to re-examine your beliefs around this and what actually happened. Physique changes take months.

Absurd

It is absurd to believe that one Deadlift workout would make you square.
 

blubb

Level 1 Valued Member
Haha fair enough but my obliques are still sticking out making that waist bigger. But I don't doubt for a sec that it's because of how I perform them. Also, I always did them using a training bag at home instead of using a barbell which probably wasn't smart but this was when the gym were closed. I also noticed I got into APT after doing them, maybe because the bag wasn't as close to the body compared to a barbell. Also did lots of reps per set...

Well, maybe I will give them another shot one day :)
 
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Kenny Croxdale

Level 6 Valued Member
my obliques are still sticking out making that waist bigger.

Not That Much Bigger

1) Your obliques aren't making your waist that much bigger.

2) To reiterate, Deadlifts are not going to give you a square shape or make you obliques larger after one training session.

Core/Abdominal Muscle

Core and Abdominal Muscles can increase in thickness and size with training; over time dependent on how you train them.

For someone interested in not increasing Core/Abdominal thickness, Don't train let them atrophy.

Another solution is to perform a minimal amount of abdominal training or perform Isometric Abdominal Training, such as Planks for 10 second per set or less to increase their strength.

Strength Athletes

These athletes have stronger and thicker Core/Abdominal Muscles.

As Dr Mel Siff stated in his, "Facts and Fallacies of Fitness" book; stronger and thicker Core/Abs are like having another set of Spinal Erectors.

Great Squatters and Deadlifter usually have a thicker trunk.

Intra-Abdominal Pressure

The abdominal muscle provide Intra-Abdominal Pressure.

What this does stabilize the Spinal Erectors; allowing the Erectors to generate more force (strength and power).

Tree Analogy

A good 6 foot tall tree has root that goes down 6 feet, as well.

A thick trunk is what keep them upright.

That applies to Strength Athletes (Powerlifters, Olympic Lifters, Strong Men/Women. etc.). A larger, strong trunk is necessary for them to Squat, Deadlift, Snatch, Clean and Jerk heavy loads.

"Leakage"

As Dr Stu McGill noted, the trunk is responsible for the transfer of strength and power from the lower body to the upper body.

With a weak, smaller trunk, there is a "Leakage" of that strength and Power.

Think of "Trunk Leakage" as having a electric cord with a short in the middle of the cord; that is "Leakage".
 
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